> **DEAR READER,
> Please either read the entire thread OR Ignore it completely, or the subject won't make any sense to you!
> -Short version:
> I got chat restricted for flaming my jungler, a Lee Sin, who came mid at lvl 2-3 and took exp from the entire minion wave, lasthit a few minions, and AOE'd with E, the backwave so it dies on turret. I didn't know this person or say anything to him, so it shouldn't have been something personal.
> I pinged him multiple times and his replies were super tilting, as he told me to "chill", "chill dude" "I only want to hit lvl 4 faster".
> This happened to me lately, A LOT lately! I didn't say anything in the previous games, but I couldn't manage being silent this time so yeah, I flamed him. He ruined the entire early game for me, and I ended being the one chat restricted, while he went on unpunished.
> => griefing must be allowed by riot.
> I wanted to discuss this with the support staff, so here is my ticket, and their mindblowing replies:**
Hopefully, you'll be as amazed as I was.
Title:** This is not fair at all! If you don't punish the griefers but the flamers who try defending their right to play the lane!**
august 4 2019, 12:55:41 am
I want to talk about this, because it is unfair. Based on logic alone, it is unfair.
I don't want my chat ban lifted, I read the rule where you don't do that, unless the report was fake.
Still, I feel the need to talk to a riot employee and ask his opinion regarding this matter.
I have reported toxic people in the past. People wishing other people to die of cancer, people telling other people to kill themselves in real life, people who cursed more than you could imagine.
I got ONE message that the player has been punished (and I'm not exagerating, ONE FEEDBACK REPORT in 30-40 reports). And those people were HARSH, believe me! I was a little baby compared to them.
Yet, here I am being restricted for having a mental breakdown on yet another jungler who comes midlane (on my lane) at lvl 2-3 and starts farming minions without doing an actual gank - his explanation was to hit lvl 3 or 4 faster (don't remember exactly).
This (having the minimum game knowledge) means that my lane opponent will hit lvl 6 before me, when the whole purpose of playing Zed is to profit off the power spikes (lvl 3, lvl 6, etc.).
I wanted to play a normal draft game when I usually play ranked, especially for improving my powerspike plays, and he took 3 melee minions from me and leeched the exp of 2 casters (almost the whole wave) without doing a gank first.
He insisted and gave me a totally unreasonable explanation, as he simply wanted to hit a lvl faster (off my lane).
This happened to me in ranked many times.
I never intentionally feed, afk or grief people.
The only times I am being toxic is when people grief me.
So my problem is the following:
Why do you punish someone for almost having a stroke from being griefed by his jungler.
And don't you punish any junglers/other lanes for coming to your lane and grief.
Griefing is the reason for toxicity. Whether it's a lane inting (actual inting) which is griefing, or someone going to farm on other lanes, or junglers not wanting to gank certain lanes, it's all about GRIEFING.
And GRIEFING doesn't get punished in this game. I know I reported hundreds of griefers and didn't get the message ONCE. Except when I reported flamers. You love punishing those.
Do you believe your system is working fine?
This reason right here is why I have always quit league mid season for the past 4 years.
You don't punish griefers, but you punish people for freely expressing themselves.
I know your rules, I have read them. But if you can't be fair for both parties, don't be fair for the "toxic" player who is being griefed!
Either punish both, or none!
In no Universe your system is fair.
Let me give you yet another example of a chat restriction, and this was on a different account/server.
Jungler goes scuttle at lvl 3. I ping him that my lane opponent went SS.
I am at 10% hp (after enemy jungler ganked) while my opponent is full. I ping MY jungler to back off as I see my lane opponent going after him, through my ward.
He dies and starts cursing me and asking people to report me for his death.
I lose it and call him an idiot for feeding my lane when he was pinged, tell him to look at my hp, etc.
I mute him, and he keeps blaming me for his mistakes.
In the end, I get the chatban, not him.
If you have access to the replay, please analyze it. See what he did when I started flaming him.
Understand the reasons behind my and most other league players.
Please understand it and take it to your superiors to have something done about it.
It is not fair.
Again: Griefing is the reason people become toxic.
You ban those who react, instead of banning those who provoke.
I don't have the patience anymore to accept being griefed without reacting.
I want normal games where no teammates do harm to me on purpose. I understand people losing lanes, I never flame them. I understand people being chaotic in teamfights, I never flame them either.
But when I get griefed, I can't sit and accept another 30-40 minutes of my life being wasted because someone is griefing me.
You don't have the means necessary to watch replays. I know, it would take a long time and need like 3 times the empoyees riot has now, to cover the time needed to watch all those replays and decide who was the culprit.
In my opinion, griefing is the root of all the toxicity.
It would be fair in the chat restriction logs, to show what your team/enemies said as well, so you can contest that.
It would be fair to get this chat restriction lifted, and the players who teamed up against me to get punished. I know you can't do this, or... won't. So I'm not asking, just pointing it out.
Ban those who provoke, not those who react.
This is the only way you will improve the game, and the community behind it.
And the thing you are about to tell me:
If someone is toxic, mute them.
If you mute the person, they usually use it to their advantage, convinging the enemy team that you're doing something you didn't. They end up reporting you, and you get negative points on your account.
Muting is not the answer.
Punishing people who provoke, should be your priority!
I never provoked in my life. Yet I am here, the one getting punished for trying to defend the fate of the game, from a griefer.
I already expect your reply to be partial. You probably don't have the time to read the report through, fully, and understand my issue with your system.
It's almost like you are encouraging griefers, and you deny people from having negative feelings in return.
Nobody should be this robotic, riot!
Chat logs of both sides and explanation of what happened.txt (2485 bytes)
august 5 2019, 8:48:22 am
Genathos from Player Support here!
I’ve read your whole message and I’m sorry to see that you’ve had this experience >.<
I have to tell you that I’m a player too and I can totally relate to your feeling when somebody is insulting, trolling or simply annoying you; but we also need to consider that it’s important to have a nice environment, otherwise the negative attitude will only lead to bad experiences for all those involved in the game.
So, I’ve looked through the chat logs of the game and I’ve noticed some things which you might consider unfair but they actually led you to this situation. Now, let's take a look at this:
[2:32] 6Pac (Zed): wtf
[2:41] 6Pac (Zed): but why you dumb fk
[2:46] 6Pac (Zed): shell hit lvl 6 before me
[3:00] 6Pac (Zed): piece of shit jungler
[3:08] 6Pac (Zed): dont
[3:22] 6Pac (Zed): dont come mid again u trash
[3:24] 6Pac (Zed): or i afk
[3:29] 6Pac (Zed): ok
[3:33] [All] 6Pac (Zed): rep lee for griefing
[4:01] 6Pac (Zed): you have no clue how to play this game it seems
[4:53] 6Pac (Zed): i'm simply sick of these troll junglers who grief midlane
[4:59] 6Pac (Zed): that's all
[7:13] 6Pac (Zed): gonna send the replay to riot :)
[7:39] 6Pac (Zed): premade?
[7:49] 6Pac (Zed): report me for what?
[7:56] 6Pac (Zed): for lee taking my minions at min 3?
[8:08] 6Pac (Zed): giving qiyana level advantage?
[8:16] 6Pac (Zed): destroying my laning phase?
[8:25] 6Pac (Zed): because this boosted shit doesnt know what a jungler'
[8:30] 6Pac (Zed): i supposed to do?
[9:19] 6Pac (Zed): ok sylas np
[9:27] 6Pac (Zed): if that;s all you see
[9:42] 6Pac (Zed): muted
[10:09] 6Pac (Zed): so in your opinion, it is ok for jungler to go to a solo lane early and giving the enemy a level advantage
[10:11] 6Pac (Zed): right?
First of all, we treat each and every case individually and we do not take into consideration one player's behavior to justify the other one’s actions.
As I previously mentioned, I read the whole chat log and although I understand that you were trying to defend yourself (and I can also see why you did that) I have to say that targeting your teammates isn’t the best approach. Retaliation can be pretty offensive and that’s why I never encourage fighting fire with fire – this will affect all the players including yourself ☹
Now, just to make everything clear, I wouldn’t say this behavior was so negative, but it still brought you this restriction. Yes, I know how frustrating it is to be matched with negative players and I know it sucks, but the best thing you can do is to report them at the end of the game or simply mute them.
Let me give you an example from my personal experience. One day, I had some really bad games where all my teammates flamed me really hard and I felt offended, but instead of responding with the same negativity I chose to type in all my frustrations in a Notepad document (or simply yelling in front of my display but not typing in the game chat xD). What I'm trying to say here is that it's OK to get angry or tilted (we are human beings), but if we answer with the same negative behavior things will just get worse.
I know that this isn’t going to make you very happy – after all, this is not really the outcome you were hoping for, and the account is still restricted, right? (I mean, you've spent a lot of time on it, so it's understandable) – however, as much as I would love to help you with this one, there's not much I can do here. Still, I hope you are not too upset with me and I also hope that now you understand the situation a little bit better.
Take care and have a nice day!
Player Support Specialist - Genathos
"You can't milk those."
august 5 2019, 10:41:19 am
Hello dear Genathos,
I have read your reply and I must ask you: Do you think that is healthy behavior?
"I chose to type in all my frustrations in a Notepad document (or simply yelling in front of my display but not typing in the game chat"
I mean, a person who yells at his display, instead of telling your teammates what their mistake was and letting the anger flow where it normally should?
I hope, I really do hope that you understand this shouldn't be an option.
People should enjoy a game, or get frustrated at its players who grief because they choose doing so.
Now my question again:
Why was I restricted, and why is the griefer who ruined 40 minutes of my life, by ruining my early laning phase on purpose and managed to turn all the teammates against me, free/unbanned/unpunished/unwarned?
I also want to point out that I wouldn't have raged at this jungler if this wouldn't be a constant thing happening to me. It's not the first time it happened. It's something that happens every 3rd or 4th game. I always end up reporting them, but none of them were ever punished. Of the time comes when I can't hold it in any longer, and I shouldn't.
You say you have read the chatlogs of both parties.
You said that you understand that the person has griefed me.
You saw how he asked others to report me and talked behind "my back" as I muted him.
Do you consider riot's punishment system fair?
Should I start griefing others to get them rage at me, and report them and get them banned in the end?
This would easily ruing the game for everyone. Why should only the midlaner suffer, right?
Should I make a Facebook league-group post about how griefers are not punished?
Because this means that the JUNGLER role is the most powerful role in the game.
Who knows, maybe in time everyone will only want to play jungle. Or quit the game because the jungler holds all that power.
They can take every lane's minions, in every single game.
They can lasthit kills others have worked hard to get by themselves, and then point out the teammates' bad farm/kda to get them rage even harder. Should I start playing jungle and do this in order to get the frustrations caused by this punishment off my chest?
That's how easily exploitable the current ban system is in this game.
I can do all that, and avoid getting punished in the future, while ruining the game for everyone else.
august 6 2019, 2:47:08 pm
Thanks for the reply.
Frankly, I won't go into details about that particular question, personally I think everyone should find their own ways to deal with tilt in a personal way.
Where I will go into detail is your behavior in the game that led to this restriction.
Excuse me if I sound a little blunt here, however there is no excuse whatsoever for insulting someone else in the game. Regardless of the circumstances. All players are responsible for their own behavior, regardless of outside provocation and who starts to troll/flame etc.
So the fact that you were trolled in that game, matters very little as its each players responsibility to control themselves and report inappropriate behavior. Remember that you have all the tools in the game to remove yourself from such behavior and continuing such behavior is definitely not acceptable.
From what I see in the chatlogs you were flaming Sylas for being bad at the Jungle role. I know that sometimes it feels like your team is dragging you down and that you may lose games due to circumstances that are not in your hands. I do have to point out the fact that bossing your team around and making demands on certain strategies isn't going to help your game. Think about it this way, if someone in your team is tilted, the behavior you displayed when saying "dont come mid again u trash" is most definitely going to make matters worse for the team overall and your chances at winning will decrease drastically.
I hope this clears things up. I see that the context of the restriction was given so we're considering the matter closed.
Riot Games Player Support Specialist
august 6 2019, 11:55:40 pm
"From what I see in the chatlogs you were flaming Sylas for being bad at the Jungle role."
I honestly don't know what you have read. I even attached a .docx stating clearly that "LEE SIN" the jungler has taken shared XP from a FULL minion lane, including lasthitting 2 minions, while AOE hitting the casters so I can't lasthit them under turret when I was LEVEL 2, after being pinged 5 times to back off. The problem was not only that but his attitude to me. What Sylas? Where? Tell me!
Sylas was the toplaner asking people to report me for being toxic to the Lee who griefed me. Even your colleague admitted that I wasn't even that toxic.
What's so hard to understand? Honestly!
This just shows how little you care about your customers.
What can I say?
Thank you for missing the entire point of my ticket and giving me a reply that has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
You've been of great help!
So griefing is allowed is what you're saying. Don't mind if I do!
This was the ticket I wrote after I got chat restricted for flaming a griefer and the replies that followed.
Nobody could pay me enough money, to sit midlane and shut up while the jungler comes mid (xth game in a row) and takes exp, or pushes into enemy freeze when I recall, leaving me vulnerable to ganks while I stay in exp range but my jungler that pushes, never even considers ganking, countless of stuff like this happened to me in consecutive games and I simply couldn't take it anymore. So I flamed. Wasn't the most toxic person out there. I reported people for wishing cancer, telling each other to kill themselves and their families, and almost never got the confirmation message that the player has been punished.
Yet I try to defend my lane, and I get chat restricted.** Fine, let's say I get it. What I asked riot here is what to do regarding such griefers?**
Their answer completely amazed me.
**Support Staff 1:**
> _"I wouldn’t say this behavior was so negative"_
(of course, when the most common insults are when someone is doing someone else's mom, someone is someone's father, someone tells someone they should kill themselves, hardcore racism and insulting each other's gods, etc.)
> _"One day, I had some really bad games where all my teammates flamed me really hard and I felt offended, but instead of responding with the same negativity I chose to type in all my frustrations in a Notepad document (or simply yelling in front of my display but not typing in the game chat xD)."_
(**So let's all yell at our monitors and curse in notepads!** It's healthy behavior! This will definitely help the jungler understand that he didn't do something right, or force him to stay off your lane. Trust me, I even said "PLEASE" before this game. And the most common reply is: "stfu, its only 1 minion" when it was a full wave or 2.)
**Suppport Staff 2:**
(I'm pointing out to you that I had beef with Lee Sin who griefed me @ my early laning phase, not with Sylas. The GM obviously only read like 2 lines from the whole chatlog and gave me a reply that has nothing to do with the point at hand.)
> _"From what I see in the chatlogs you were flaming Sylas for being bad at the Jungle role."
> "I do have to point out the fact that bossing your team around and making demands on certain strategies isn't going to help your game."_
(telling your jungler to stop stealing your exp = bossing around your team? = telling your jungler he is bad at his role?)
*Nothing is edited, I recorded the ticket, can upload it to youtube, on request and provide link.
*I never flame my team for losing. I'm just not the type of guy who cries for losing a game. I only have a problem when someone is trying to ruin my experience on purpose, and doesn't listen to my pings or requests to stay off my lane. I have also flamed junglers who turret dive at lvl 2-3 on a full hp enemy then flame me for not following (under turret, ofc).
So yeah, this is the system that is currently in place.
You can grief, you can pingspam, you can call people that they're bad, but you can't "offend" those who grief you in multiple lines, because persistent toxicity is not tollerated!
Wow. I really hope I'm done with this company for good. Seeing how little a sh*t they give about an individual customer, at least based on their reply, they're forcing you to endure griefing, giving you no tools to defend yourself, and this is too much.
**EDITED: Who are these junglers I'm talking about?
They're mostly self-called plat smurfs, playing in... well plat or high gold, thinking that they should be the ones to get fed, because they believe they can solo carry the game. Makes no sense, I know. I've seen them getting laughed at when the game was lost, more than once. They don't seem to understand. Also most of them are Lee Sin mains who can't hit a single Q, or know how to ward jump, slow then Q...**
P.S. Reporting griefers? I did that more times than I can count. Not even 1 message that they've been punished!
In this game, only mass reports count. Those from 4 premades, or when your teammates convince the enemy team that you are the toxic one and get reported by them as well. (Muting the toxic people in your team leaves you vulnerable to this).
So toplane or botlane will never report a jungler for going mid and puting it behind by stealing exp/farm. I've never in my life seen someone saying: report X for going mid and farming @ min 3. Maybe you'll be the one reported by the rest of your team, for being behind in cs. I'm done!
EDIT2: I got another reply from a 3rd player support specialist, who came really close to getting my point.
He did confirm the following:
"Being within 1600 units of a minion's death grants experience regardless of whether it was last hit killed or killed via another source.
**The player was in range for a total of 5 minion deaths.**
**His actions deducted 15 gold from your wave and deducted 50% of of 5 minion kills.** Gold's not a big impact but considering he offered a gank opportunity that wasn't taken, the leached XP would have been compensated - thus no longer being an issue."
Unfortunately, after I've witnessed his previous Q miss on my lane opponent and as zed has no hard CC, the gank wouldn't have guaranteed the kill, thus my lane would have still been handicapped - which is the reason I didn't want to take up on his "gank offer".