Cypherous (EUW)
: There wouldn't be any less trolls though, all you would do is let the current crop of trolls ruin more games before being permabanned, there is no "cure" for the human condition
How do you simply say that every single person receiving a permanent mute will go trolling every game he plays till he's banned? Toxicity is different than trolling as i said before, so perma-mute will indeed be a **cure** when it comes to toxic people. If they start trolling afterwards. Then that's a different rule broken, and a different punishment to be given, which will be a perma-ban in that case.
: Maybe you should have disabled the chat yourself before being toxic enough to get permabanned, if you can't control yourself when you type, stop typing. The same way everyone has the ability to mute, you should have the ability to shut up, everyone can have a bad game or a bad day, but i hardly doubt you got perma over 1 game or 1 day, since I got bad days myself and here I am not banned. I don't know why you got perma or what did you say and while I'm all in for being way more important permabanning inters, trolls and ragequiters I won't cry for a hardcore flamer being banned.
You should know that this perma-ban didn't happen in like 1 week, it took around 2-3 years, and it was very slowly accumulating, Indeed I was toxic a few times, but mostly I was only arguing and sometimes replying to anything anyone would say to me, because I was mad. and that's what most banned people are banned for, because of the couple of times they argued with large gaps of time between each time and the other. The time between my permanent ban and any last punishment i had is around 7 months. I didn't think i would suddenly login to see a perma-ban card. When i clearly didn't deserve it.
: it's not me, the community proved riot that the system doesn't work, since it was already adopted in the past. the result was that people start trolling ingame instead of flaming in chat. You're not the first to come up with this.
Even if most of those start trolling afterwards, the ones who wouldn't still should be able to play. And not be treated like those who would troll. We're talking about equality here right?
: > [{quoted}](name=Autarchy,realm=EUNE,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=MlzhLuHF,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2018-09-21T11:23:13.175+0000) > > They made you an option to mute, and that's for a reason, if you will give the enemy team first blood in every game then you deserve a punishment yourself. You never really needed to show me that you are one of these flamers who think they have some right to treat their team like s@@t, man. It was patently obvious from the very start already. But some people may still not be at your lever yet, and it's worth to try and let them see reason before it's too late. Just pretend that i was answering them, rather than you.
First of all I never said that anyone has the right to be toxic in any method. And how exactly did i show you I'm a flamer? You should know that this perma ban didn't happen in like 1 week, it took around 2-3 years, and it was very slowly accumulating, I was toxic sometimes, but mostly i was only arguing and sometimes replying to anything anyone would say to me, because i was mad. and that's what most banned people are banned for, because of the couple of times they argued with large gaps of time between each time and the other. The time between my permanent ban and any last punishment i had is around 7 months. I didn't think i would suddenly login to see a perma-ban card. When i clearly didn't deserve it.
: and what i said 4 times already in this thread only, that thing was already been tested in the past and lead to people trolling ingame and having so the opposite effect. are we finished running in circles yet?
Yes it was tested and? Why isn't there a perma-mute now ? because people start griefing afterwards? well that's a different rule broken, which means a different punishment applied. + you can't simply claim that every player getting a perma mute will just start griefing every game he plays, definitely most of them will get the message and play quietly since they're unable to chat anymore.
: no dude, what are you even saying? that toxic players won't use your race as an insult? that players aren't toxic at all they limit themselves to chat "about things going on in the game"? without insulting/flaming/harassing? what game have you played so far? what forum board are you reading? Are you in denial or what?
Yes they won't use your race when they don't know anything about you since you're playing a game and not face to face obviously, was it really hard for you to understand that by yourself? How are they supposed to know anything about you while they're only in a game with you ? Do you write all your information as your nickname for flamers to read and use them for insulting you ?
: >Imagine if everyone simply mutes whoever annoys them immediately instead of flaming back again, you're not reading the replies at all, you just go on and on trying to lead your argument to victory is it hard to understand that if you mute someone it means you are already been flamed? otherwise you wouldn't mute him? please reread what i just wrote: if you mute someone it means you are already been flamed. again, one last time, let's read it togheter if you mute someone it means you are already been flamed. got it? OK. good. you think i mute someone and NOT report him? the mute options is there just to prevent further harassment, not to prevent it from the start, unless you fullmute when the match starts, but that's another story.
Apparently you don't have an idea what this whole thing is about. Because what I said in the very start is to have a perma-mute punishment, so you wont have to mute toxic people. While if they start griefing. Then they get banned. So i was replying to you in terms of this concept being applied, which would mean people you mute and report after the game get "permamuted" if they keep the toxicity.
: > [{quoted}](name=Autarchy,realm=EUNE,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=MlzhLuHF,comment-id=00080000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-09-21T13:31:27.631+0000) > > what i said already answered you. How is he ruining your game when he's muted ? are you serious? both me and strigina explained it why are you asking again? do you even read the replies? furthermore there was no need to explain a thing that should be obvious to you since we're playing the same game >and by the way people don't just start flaming before they even move in game. They don't just start flaming as soon as the game starts. yeah right they start to flame after you miss a last hit/skillshot/ or you die once or twice ..and your point is ... ?
I already explained my obvious idea of Perma-mute instead of perma ban. Which is clearly better and fair. But seems like you just insist to disagree.
: > [{quoted}](name=Autarchy,realm=EUNE,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=MlzhLuHF,comment-id=00080000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-21T13:30:32.138+0000) > >And please explain to me the use of mute option when you say you're not supposed to use it. Dude i have the impression you think you're allowed to flame and such since there is a mute option for us to use in those cases let me remind you that option is designed with the intent of protect ourselves from people abusing chat/pings, it's not a tool that justify and legitimate the abuse! "oh, let me spam ping this motherfacka that just died, what's wrong with that he can always mute me afterall" wtf of sick backwards reasoning is that?
I clearly explained that you have the mute option to use it and not just to cry while sending a report, which means toxic people are not even able to flame if people actually use the mute button. Imagine if everyone simply mutes whoever annoys them immediately instead of flaming back. Would anyone get reported ? I don't think so, because no one will be able to flame. As well as that no one will even be "abused".
: > [{quoted}](name=Autarchy,realm=EUNE,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=MlzhLuHF,comment-id=000100010001000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-21T12:00:19.667+0000) > > You're saying in-game chat which doesn't even reach you personally is the same as being racist or insulting a religion. Do you see sense in what you're trying to prove ? see, right there is where lies your reasoning flaw, you think a "chat" has less impact than an insult said "face to face" you are equally racist if you tell me the n word verbally, or via chat, you know? same goes for every other thing you say/chat.
You misunderstood. What i meant is, game chat will always go around what's happening in the game itself. People wont just randomly start talking about races or so. They will only talk about things going on in that certain game. Which means after all it's not truly harming anyone and usually people are only annoyed by it.
Cypherous (EUW)
: > There is no need to wait for a muted player to ruin matches. You mute him and if he ruins one match gameplay-wise, you permaban him. And thats still 1 more match he ruined, especially when you already had a very good hunch he was going to do it, multiply that 1 match by the hundreds of thousands of matches being played and the number of trolls, thats an unacceptable number of extra matches where up to 9 people were affected > The amount of permabans would drop drastically and the ones who got banned would be actually incompatible with playing the game, instead of social interactions. Not by any significant margin, and considering this game is a series of social interactions both verbal and non-verbal they have already proven they are not suited to the game, waiting one more match isn't going to suddenly show them the error of their ways > It would be more difficult to implement and thus expensive, but it would fit the "crime". The problem is that people dehumanize flamers and think kicking them is acceptable. It's not. It wouldn't be any more difficult to add you're literally just incrementing the counter by 1 and disabling the chat of a user, adding it would be simple but pointless, the evidence and testing has already shown that there is nowhere near enough of an improvement to justify the extra ruined games, i mean its nice that you really really want to believe in people but if 2 chat restrictions and a 14 day ban were not enough to get them to reconsider their choices, then what makes you think 1 extra chance at ruining a match for others is going to change, its perfectly acceptable to remove toxic elements from the game, nobody is dehumanizing them, its entirely because they ARE human that it needs to be done, they won't learn without a meaningful punishment, there is a reason kids these days are as bad as they are, there are no meaningful punishments being handed out these days, i'm not saying we need to bring back the cane or anything that barbaric but hand holding and "he can't help it" isn't going to solve anything
You're saying that everyone that will be perma muted will start griefing which is incorrect in the first place. And only griefers will be doing their thing and get banned. + There are pings to communicate in the game and pings cover everything from champions to objectives. so you don't even need chat. And finally, prema-mute is already disabling them from flaming forever, which is already a harsh punishment, and as i said. A _**punishment**_, not a second chance.
: you want to tell me that if you do nothing ingame that is different to actualy being afk ? in both cases you do nothing good for your team and should be punished if you do it in excesiv amounts .. if i go afk for 10 minutes in game then i should probably get punished, right ? then why should you not get punished for writing toxic stuff worth 10 minutes of you typing in chat ? its the same thing .. in both cases you are not doing anything to contribute to victory .. actualy if you type in chat and try to play at the same time more often than not your oponent will just straight up murder you because you cant cast spells or defend yourself while in chat .. basicly meaning you are likely to feed in those scenarios ..
Well then you're saying people shouldn't use chat at all because it will only waste time and every second you spend on typing should be considered afk. It makes no sense at all, and toxicity is obviously a very different story than being afk or ruining the game. Why do you think they give you a different option for verbal abuse when reporting ? because it's the same thing ? no obviously.
: you are being obtuse on purpose you know perfectly well when you're muting someone you are already at least a bit tilted and so the flamer has already ruined your game to a certain degree
what i said already answered you. How is he ruining your game when he's muted ? and by the way people don't just start flaming before they even move in game. They don't just start flaming as soon as the game starts.
Strigina (EUNE)
: Because if someone force you to use the mute function it's after the damage is already done. Just the fact you make someone use it is wrong itself, chat should be used to communicate with your teammates to achieve victory, not to fight your teammates. Also if someone is spending half of the game typing he is already weakening his ability to be helpful member of the team.
You're claiming every toxic player is spending a good 20 minutes typing only and not a single thing other than that. And please explain to me the use of mute option when you say you're not supposed to use it.
Strigina (EUNE)
: But it's not really equal. If someone annoys you, they usually start with chat restriction, continue with another chat restriction and they they get 14 days ban. Perma in 4th tier of punishment unless they use zero tolerance phrases (which aren't just "annoying" people). People who are intentionally ruining games start with 14 days ban. Anyway, flaming others is ruining games too.
How will someone ruin your game with chat when you can mute them anytime you want ?
H1SD (EUNE)
: Sometimes what got me tilted was the other player's attitudes, but mostly it was just me being the toxic little piece of crap that I am.
It's natural to get mad, and as long as you're not inting or griefing in any way. You're still normal, I don't recall a single game i played without at least 1 person showing a little toxicity.
Strigina (EUNE)
: The option 1 actually. Firstly, everyone should be treated equally so paying players shouldn't get any advantage over those who didn't pay anything. And I say this as someone who already spent about 1500€ here. Second, simply because people who can't behave may often discourage other paying players from playing the game anymore. Third, because permanent mute was already a thing and it didn't work so why try it again.
How is it equal when you treat someone who only annoys you the same as you treat someone who ruins the whole game, sometimes for both teams.
: > [{quoted}](name=Autarchy,realm=EUNE,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=MlzhLuHF,comment-id=0001000100010000,timestamp=2018-09-21T09:58:30.600+0000) > > You're going off-topic, what we're trying to say is a perma-mute would be a big solution to this problem no it won't be a solution as explained in the previous 239421 threads about this argument > It is indeed a game with it's own rules, real life has different rules depending on religion, country, and norms. You don't put tape on someones mouth in real life because that's a crime in real life. Real life is a different game. And has different rules. I don't know what you're talking about, tell me one place/religion/country in which when you flame someone you won't get kicked out eventually. We're talking about human basic interactions here: you harass people you get kicked, simple as that and why you go talking about "different" rules? even if they are it's obvious you broke them, so you got banned, the analogy i made is for helping you comprehend that flaming online is a crime just like it would be in real life.
You're saying in-game chat which doesn't even reach you personally is the same as being racist or insulting a religion. Do you see sense in what you're trying to prove ?
: Because i would rather play with people who MAY call an SS or eventually give some useful directions or even only write GG once in a while, i like those. While i DON'T want to play with people who i'm forced to mute because at minute 2 they are already wishing death for their team because they gave first blood and it's course not their fault. /thread
They made you an option to mute, and that's for a reason, if you will give the enemy team first blood in every game then you deserve a punishment yourself.
Gabresol (EUW)
: The chat and pings are THE communication tool in the game. Not being able to communicate about missing laners or spotted enenmies as well as the lack of possabilities to make calls like "Baon after inhib" can lead to a disadvantage against a team that can communicate in the fullest. Especially in higher elos where ganks can depend on someoen correctly timing the enemies summoners a chat restriction can be a major set back. You can be mad at botlanes death to the roaming midlaner all you want if they had no way of knowing Zed was coming, since they muted you entirely, because you were just too obnoxious to deal with. The lack of communication soloQ offer compared to 5-pre-flex already changes the game drasticly and having pings and chat compared to not having it changes the game even more drasticly. That is why "/mute all" is a terrible idea if you want to get out of bronze.
That's basically why you have pings. That is to reduce the need of chat as much as possible, so you could simply SS, or ping someone to back, or ping help at baron. you can basically ping anything in the game and chat is really not needed much in terms of wining a game, even if you want to focus you could just target someone and your teammates would understand the priorities when fighting.
: > [{quoted}](name=SonicAF,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=MlzhLuHF,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2018-09-21T07:36:24.412+0000) > >The problem is that people dehumanize flamers and think kicking them is acceptable. It's not. No, it is. If you start flame in real life, you don't have someone going and put a tape on your mouth, you just get kicked away And now don't start the usual bullshit "it's just a game" "it's only internet bruh" ..
You're going off-topic, what we're trying to say is a perma-mute would be a big solution to this problem even in terms of earning their business, since most of these "toxic" people buy RP(pay for the game), which means loosing them equals loosing money in terms of Riot. And yes this is just a game, you don't simply expect someone to go talk about politics, races or religions while playing league. You're only trying to make the _**"crime"**_ look heavier than it actually is. When talking about flamers, we're talking about those who get mad and type angry stuff like targeting their teammates or their enemies and start blaming them for stuff. It is indeed a game with it's own rules, real life has different rules depending on religion, country, and norms. You don't put tape on someones mouth in real life because that's a crime in real life. Real life is a different game. And has different rules.
Strigina (EUNE)
: Imagine you have a nice fancy restaurant that people love and visit often. Now you have a guest who, when served a glass of drink, would occasionally throw it on other guests. What would you do? 1) Kick him out and not allow him in your restaurant anymore. 2) Stop serving him drinks and hope he won't find anything else to throw.
Imagine you own a game like_** League Of Legends**_ with millions of people playing it. But many of those millions are only _"toxic"_, yet they are paying lots of money in the game. What would you do? 1) Pema ban them and loose all the money you could've earned( as well as ignoring all the money and time they already spent) 2) Simply implementing a Perma-mute punishment that would solve everything and save you a lot of money in the long term.
: it was already tried .. it ended up in the chatbanned ppl trolling basicly every game until they got a ban also look at the situation from an other angle : here is a person furiously typing insults to his team while standing still with his character and being totaly useless / basicly afk .. i mean this way everytime you start typing it is similar to you going afk -> why should ppl like someone who plays only half the game while insulting you the other half ? i mean it is bad enough that you are toxic .. but while you type you can also be considered afk or in some cases even trolling / feeding / inting since you have less control over your character while typing
Going afk several times, or just being useless and watching your team fight and die without doing anything is a totally different case, and that would be where someone gets a permaban. While simply someone who just gets mad at the jungler and blames him for loosing the game is another story. Then they should see if that happens a lot, give the person a chat restriction, and increase the level of punishment till it reaches a perma-mute. Or a ban **_only if he started griefing_**
Cypherous (EUW)
: The issue is in their test the people who got the permanent chat bans escalated to griefing, meaning they essentially got to ruin twice as many games before being banned
What I tried to say is exactly what **_SonicAF_** said. If someone griefs a game even after they're **perma-muted**, just simply ban them. Eventually there would be way less "trolls" and toxic people.
Saibbo (EUW)
: Having a bad day doesn't only affect the chat but also the way you and other play the game, when you spend time typing and thinking how can i insult this guy that's sabotaging my game, yes it does affect the game play, and yes people get upset times to time and I do too. What's different about it is that until it happens just "sometimes" you don't get punished, when instead it becomes a regular habit to be toxic in chat then you start getting punished, it start with chat restriction of 10 and 25 games, only then you get your first 14 day ban... if until that point you didn't receive the message that what are you doing is wrong then sorry but no fair solutions, you get the perma-ban. The mute button is there, yes but for when someone snaps or is not having it and you mute him and report him after the game, what's the point of the chat if you HAVE to mute every single game because someone is toxic?? And no just perma-banning someone from the chat wouldn't be a solution at all, it wouldn't change the fact that it's not a real punishment that makes you change and also the chat is needed time to time for actually communicating or chatting, that means even in champ select and post-game lobby..
But they could just ban someone from in game chat and then toxic people won't be able to flame, but they will still be forced to play with nicer people silently till they start to get used to good behavior. And either way there would still be no more toxicity.
H1SD (EUNE)
: I am toxic as well, but I quit for good before I got any punishments
I don't blame you. When almost every game you play has toxic people in it.
Saibbo (EUW)
: > is ""only"" in chat ? What gets in the chat comes from you, I wouldn't say just "Only" >Chat doesn't affect the gameplay in any way It does for some people, believe it or not.. and no.. mute doesn't work if people don't use it and some people again don't... >This is why my ban is clearly unfair and only shows disrespect to all the time and money I've put into this game. That's the exact opposite, It'd disrespectful to the people that have to deal with toxic people that want to enjoy the game.
That's why they have the mute option, how is the problem in "me" when I don't affect the gameplay? Clearly like every normal person having a bad day, I got defensive sometimes, but others could've just muted, or if the devs were to take an action, a permanent chat restriction would've been a fair solution. And if they don't use it then well, it's made for a reason. And how is it disrespectful to the people when they've already been given an option to mute?
Cypherous (EUW)
: Riot tested permanent chat bans, people escalated their behaviour to the point where they were ruining games, as a result there isn't really any point in waiting as you just end up ruining more and more matches
Those who grief deserve a ban and those who don't simply take the chat restriction.
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Autarchy

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