Rioter Comments
: Here is a fun fact... Malzahar is listed as her top counter (followed by mid Chogath, galio, kennen, lulu) and malzahar's chances of winning the lane according to the stats ? 46.1%... I rest my case.
It is Katarina's winrate against him.
Wood Wizard (EUNE)
: Katarina............
Well, This comes from a Katarina main: I have some changes for her, just check those out. I agree that she needs to be gankable, like putting a lot higher CD on her shunpo if she uses wards to escape is a good step. She also needs to be a more teamfight-oriented champion with her resets nerfed in 1v1 situations. [Check my ideas out!](
: Sejuani and Jinx winrates were still the highest in their role before this patch, and Kata was already broken last patch to be even stronger this one
Well, I think she needs nerfs on some of her ratios, but first of all - she needs to be harder to play. I consider Katarina being simply too forgiving to play - her E escapes became trivially easy with the introduction of Trinkets, the meta game shifted from sieging turrets (at which she is useless cause she can't def turrets well and can't do anything around enemy turrrets, but dive) toward drake fights (she excels there). Also Luden's is broken on her. I have some changes in mind that actually adress how easily accessible her power is - The number changes are to be tested on PBE though. [Check this thread out :)](
: > [{quoted}](name=Deáth Lotus,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=haNRJoak,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2015-03-15T23:14:50.772+0000) > > Well, she needs changes, but ones that promote actually using proper combos instead of slamming your head into the keyboard. I agree more or less with several of your points but this ^ If you take Kata and all you do is slam keys I can guarentee you that you will feed. "This is a noob champ" rhetoric is simply not accurate.
Well I main her and have 4.31 KDA with her over 270 games. I play her most in the EUNE server and I feel I am pretty experienced on that. She is a noob champ in that she doesn't require much aiming to play, but she atually requires more timing and knowledge of enemy, which is also important , just different aspect of the game. The thing is, I see how sloppy people in bronze are at using her, and she has 54% winrate there because enemies are as much of sloppy. But yes, it's just a metaphore. But sometimes you DO panickly kill someone when ahead, and when you are fed as fuck, you can make heavy mistakes , as in - spam ult, cause it's 30 seconds CD because u have fullstack mejai and blue buff, and still get away with it.
Escheton (EUW)
: She has counterplay. It's this: build mr and hunt her down. She has no hp, no sustain, and she'd not that fast. Just ward well and hunt her down. Just sick your tank or bruiser on her and have the rest pressure an objective so her team has the choice to kill the hunter or defend the objective. Well, it was. Before she was granted access to a 120ap speed boost item. So hunt her down before she finishes Luden's.
Well, she needs changes, but ones that promote actually using proper combos instead of slamming your head into the keyboard. Half of Katarina's problems would be solved if she was less safe to play and more prone to ganks, as well as moving majority of her damage to the Q mark (Like they did with Akali.) so she has to go into meele if she wants to harass. Possible movement speed nerf to make that harder with a compensation of larger MS buff on W would be nice. Also, historically kAtarina has had a 3 seconds long channel with a 5.0 AD and 2.5 AP ratio. Then it became shorter and the AP ratio was lowered. But then she was UP and Riot buffed the AP Ratio, making her burst faster than the old Kat with sufficient AP. She needs to have a longer ult channel back again, so good kata ults are rewarded while her burst damage gets slowed down and allows for stunning her. She also needs changes so she can't really snowball THIS hard. But numerical changes will only change the level of badness enemy has to possess to make Katarina snowball. She will just need to wait more till she gets fed and then still be as much problematic. You can't possibly nerf her more as she has weak early game, while buffing base damages and nerfing scalings will make Tankarina Top lane Voyboy style be a thing again and this is more cancerous than any other thing in the game. Actually, nerfing her base damages for skills beyond level 1 would make her less unforgivable to fight against because she would need to snowball to stay effective which means she can get shut down harder in lane. She would need to get items as levels wouldn't mean this much to her. And give her ultimate a real cooldown, that doesn't get lowered unless she participates in teamfights. She is not meant to benefit from winning 1vs1's. Mind seeing those changes?
: Let's discuss Katarina and her questionable identity as an assassin.
Bump , I really want to discuss this with people, I just kept the post short because of readability. Changed something about the E. Now it promotes jumping at enemy targets.
ChiTenshi (EUW)
: It's interesting, but I like the concept of AoE Assassin. With Katarina, she needs more risk or more restrictions to achieve the reward. Examples: - Input Mana costs. - Adjust / Remove resets. - Clarity on who is being targeted in the Ultimate. - Etc. These ideas and many others could be the answer to changing Katarina but still keeping her as an AoE Assassin.
Well, if she is AoE she needs to have CD's like other AoE champions. She can't have a 1vs1 power of an Assassin while being AoE. Assassins are weak in teamfights by design and she negates that by resets. Giving her mana would feel awful - she would just build archangel's which would give her more AP and damage, and the only thing it would prevent would be that she would maybe run out of mana early game, be forced to back (what most champions can do anyway, by pushing hard and harassing her as she is melee) , and maybe sometime not have mana to do the last Q for penta. Which would feel awful both for the player and for the enemy. What is wrong with my adjustment of resets? That said, The resets could have been also changed that you only get the resets on the basic skills you damage the enemy with, but this would require a compensation in power elsewhere. I agree on the clarity issue though.
Fler (EUNE)
: Well they did remove almost all grevious wounds effects from spells, I just know kata/mf
Well, this is going to happen tbh. But also Varus E has it. I think Riot is going to remove the Grievious Wounds alltogheter aside from Ignite and Morellonomicon.
Zerelous (EUW)
: I think that's the point that Riot was originally going for, Kat would always have her ult up, but would have to be careful about when she used it, as you just said, increasing the cool down on her ultimate wouldn't change much, because she only uses it in team fights anyway. Your proposed idea would just make her snowball even harder in my opinion. Her base damages are not as bad as you would think, go look at other mid laners and you will see that, considering that she is an AOE assassin, her base damage (Most noticeable being her Q and her ultimate) are pretty good.
Most assassins aren't AoE monsters by design, but most of them do have short cooldowns if they rely on their ults to kill stuff (Kassadin/AKali /LB all are extremely reliant on their ult to function and they have low CD for it). The following is completely different: Assassins like Ahri can charm and kill people without ultimate so it has a long CD (also it is AoE somewhat) . Fizz had so much burst with basic abilities cause of Lich Bane that ult was just an addition, so he didn't need short CD on it. On the other hand, AoE mages Like Kennen, Vlad, Orianna - have very long CD's on their ultimates. Katarina should join this group or she will never be balanced, because in late game, she can kill people without actually worrying much about the ult.
Fler (EUNE)
: I dont understand, tbh dude she needed a reword/nerf she is just too op there where is is atm, the snowball is silly, and I CANT REACT THAT FAST to interupt the ult it deals too massive dmg even if 0.5...
Well, my ult makes her deal her damage slower as the channel is 20% longer and the scaling per second got lowered by 0.2 AP, that's additional +/- 250 HP lategame, that actually gives you that another 0.5 second to react. I consider removing the grevious wounds be good so you can heal yourself out of the situation, that would actually make you able to react.
Noblige (EUW)
: This purpose won't solve anything. She has farming tools, she is manaless, she has low-CD escape WITH a damage reduction buff, she is manaless, her ultimate is the ability with a highest damage in the game and for unknown reason it has grievous wounds (for even less counterplay I guess). You just can't fix her. She has to be evelynned or she will be a nuisance.
And she has little to no utility, gets rekt in lane most of the times (doesn't impact her win rate though, because of how hard she can come back). And well GW is there so jax/nasus/volibear/lategame ADC can't just stand and punch her when she is ulting , especially if she is behind.
0GameDos0 (EUW)
: lol I wont be able to get stacks if I don't get kills (using assists stacks takes too long)
No bro. I usually stack up first 10 stacks on assists if I am behind, it's because I'm not retarded to die even if the rest of my team would.
: Only her passive is unbalanced. In my opinion, it should only trigger if she damaged the dying champions with her ult. That way she can still get one reset in teamfights, or maybe more if they all die in quick succession, but she can't just chase low hp champs down and use her basic abilities to net kill after kill. I think there's a reason they changed Master Yi's R reset to simply extending the ult.
this will only force Katarina to max out CDR , have a 27 sec ultimate, and she will do the same thing. Katarina has a 3.6 sec CD on shunpo anyway, it's a no problem to kill stuff even if she needs to damage people with ult - she will reset on 3 and have ult again.
0GameDos0 (EUW)
: then why not go full retard and buy 6 SotO 6x110=660 660x3.75=2409
And then die and lose 10 stacks on each, being 300 AD? no thanks xD
: I think that Kata's biggest problem right now is her safety, she can jump around too easily and escape from too many situations and if a teamfight goes badly she can easily escape as long as she managed to snag a single assist. I think changing Shunpo to only work on enemies would be a good start to making her engages a one-way ticket into battle, and if that's not enough changing it so that she can only jump to enemy champions is a further option. Her ultimate has also become a bit too easy to use and hard to counter ever since they last buffed it. It used to have a 0.25 second warm up period before it did any damage, allowing opponents to potentially interrupt it without it dealing any damage at all. Now it still deals a chunk of damage no matter how ready the opponent is. Spreading the ultimate's damage over a longer period would also help, reducing the DPS in exchange for a longer duration so that it becomes more difficult to use. She's also been indirectly buffed by the significant reduction of silences in the game. Several midlaners have lost their silences over the last couple of years, which then reduces the number of champions that can interrupt her and so allowing her to use her ultimate's full duration more often. We really need a set of items that have an active that interrupts to allow people to actually counter her properly so that games aren't won or lost at the loading screen.
Actually, she would heavily suffer from not being able to jump on enemies and it reduces the amount of options Kata has. That is not a good way to make her an interesting champion. Well, I did spread the damage over 3 seconds as opposed to 2.5 and lowered the AP ratio. I opted for increasing the SHunpo's CD if used on wards to reduce her safety.
0GameDos0 (EUW)
: ok let me ask you this WHAT can kata do without her ult NOOOOOTHING limiting her ult in such a way would destroy her
She is actually very strong and if you don't build sh!t items , like most of AD ones - she can kill people without ult. Try Mejai and Luden's Echo. don't die until you get full stacks. Watch you do quadras without even launching an ult.
: I definitely agree with the bit about her not being an Assassin - as in the bit about deleting targets 1v1 - because she does have an assassin's mobility, but certainly not the single-target damage. Does a lot of damage overall, has high mobility, but no CC, and definitely only a mediocre burst. "Fixing" her should definitely not be done by buffing her burst at the expense of her DPS to make her an "assassin" or to force the meta. I would prefer if they buffed AD bruiserina, meaning a build that is encouraged to fight over a longer time, wait for a second W, maybe even attack in Melee etc. Her base damages are really good considering those are all multi-target skills (except for Shunpo) and their cooldowns/potential resets. The scalings are kinda bad, which is why everyone builds penetration on her (mostly because CDR doesn't matter in her "best case"/"optimal use"-scenario). If anything I would actually slightly nerf base damages, AP scaling on the ult and then buff the AD scalings on W or introduce an AD scaling to Q.
Riot doesn't want an AD kat to be a thing. I wouldn't want either, she is a mage not a bruiser, on top of having assassin qualities that would make her too good. Actually single AD items like mercurial for dem stuns work on her anyway.
0GameDos0 (EUW)
: dude once you are snowballing gold isn't a problem Last game as an assassin I ended up with 5k extra gold (that's after buying my elixir)
Then count the total AD you can get . The best AD you can go is 80 from IE 80 From BT 80 from Mercurial 110 AD from sword of occult - this is 3.75 * 350 AD = 1312.5 damage 70 AP from void staff (you must have pene anyway) but that is in both builds. and with AP you can go 2.5*1.3*(120+120+120+180) = 1755 damage. ONLY ON ULTI. not to mention you lose the whole bonus damage on her bonus skills. 120 from Zhonya 120 from Echo 120 from Rabadon 180 from Mejai Rabadon gives 30% bonus AP So no, AD isn't better.
0GameDos0 (EUW)
: her ult scales WAAAAAAY better with AD rather than AP
Not anymore. 3.75 total AD vs 2.5 AP? with 52 AD costing around the same as 80 AP, the AD scaling is worse. Cost of 1 AD - 36 g. (360 of longsword / 10) Cost of 1 AP - 21.75 g. (435 of tome / 20) 3.75 * 21.75 / 36 = 2.265625 , which is less than 2.5.
Zerelous (EUW)
: I think that's the point that Riot was originally going for, Kat would always have her ult up, but would have to be careful about when she used it, as you just said, increasing the cool down on her ultimate wouldn't change much, because she only uses it in team fights anyway. Your proposed idea would just make her snowball even harder in my opinion. Her base damages are not as bad as you would think, go look at other mid laners and you will see that, considering that she is an AOE assassin, her base damage (Most noticeable being her Q and her ultimate) are pretty good.
Well, if she doesn't have the ultimate always, unless she participates in a 3vs3+ fight, and if she uses is twice then she can't use it in the next fight so easily, makes her vunlerable in lane , so does that E change. And how would she snowball even harder as she actually has windows of opportunities during which she can be attacked ? I personally feel that kata is oppressive to fight because if she EVER manages to kill you in lane, she just goes back to it and repeat the process, which is the direct consequence of the ult's short CD.
Zerelous (EUW)
: As soon as I read the part before you changed it about katarina not being able to 1v1 people, I kind of started to not take you seriously, because she can get many an easy solo kill mid lane with her ultimate, sometimes even before hand if your lane opponent makes a silly mistake. She would be a fine champion if her base damage was decreased a bit and her scaling was increased a bit so that she has to get farm and kills to get items to get back to the same level of power she gets now just from building penetration in my opinion.
Well, the base damage of ult got nerfed , so did a scaling a little as the late game is not a problem. She just ain't an assassin because she isn't strong in 1vs1, not any more strong tha let's say, Orianna, Kennen, Vlad or any other wombo-combo AoE mage. Her basic skill damage is already pitiful. The only thing that stands out is that her cooldowns inbetween fights are non-existent. Even seen a "katarina no ult" on chat? well, I saw, and by the time jungler came she had it back again.
: Let's discuss Katarina and her questionable identity as an assassin.
: WTF is that a book or something ? xD
: Let's discuss Katarina and her questionable identity as an assassin.
Well, idk how to put my thoughts in a shorter way D:
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Deáth Lotus

Level 30 (EUNE)
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