: Don’t steal farm if that’s what you mean... that’s gonna tilt your adc off the face of the earth. Obviously you gotta carry a bad adc but you don’t wanna just screw him over, try roaming more often to get other lanes ahead
Usually when i try roaming, team calls me troll and adc cries why i dont support, also, losing xp and money.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=GetDragonOrLose,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=TedFafqH,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2020-02-10T14:21:15.134+0000) > > What means then ? MMR, the thing you don't see. Stop asking questions, just play and win.
: It’s not based on your win rate but on your mmr... if your losing more than you are gaining that means your mmr is lower than your current rank so the system is compensating with your lp gain... visa versa if your mmr is too high for your rank (for example I’m currentky getting 60 lp per win and losing 8)
I win more than I lose, mean while my MMR still +15 for win.
: > [{quoted}](name=GetDragonOrLose,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=TedFafqH,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2020-02-10T14:03:21.796+0000) > > That's the problem, why losing way more than getting on the same win/loss ratio ? Because winrate deosn't mean anything?
: But how much do you loose... big distinction
That's the problem, why losing way more than getting on the same win/loss ratio ?
Rioter Comments
: supp items
If you play mage support, you must sell this garbage once you off lane. The only reason to keep it if only your team is doing really well and you feel good being 5th leg for a dog.
: nice. for all I care it can give me 5000 HP regen per second and still I'd have no mana, while a garen is dancing with or without ocean drake. like it wasn't even close to any OP mana regen amount. but yet they removed it to "balance out" either champions that regen 2,5% of their resource each second or don't need any resource at all. a taric Q costs 110 mana but hey np, he has twice as powerful healing rate as infernal's damage output.
Actually there are strong doubts if Mundo can be killed at all.
: Is the support item change a nerf or a buff? - Analysis -
For my OTP zilean player it's total nerf. Technically it killed Zilean support. As of now I don't even know how to play him.
: Might as well remove ocean drake for something better
Are you aware that Ocean drake is twice as strong as Infernal now ? His healing rate is twice as powerful as Infernal's damage output. In fact, by statistics, Infernal is the worst drake of all 4. My comment is based on statistics chart.
: The nerf is the best decision they have made in a very long time. Yes, it was a nerf but a deserved one. Support was THE most overpowered role for a few years now and that role is the biggest beneficiary of power creep. So if you just compare the role to what it was recently, it was a nerf, but if you compare it to what it is supposed to be, it suddenly isn't bad. The state of supports isn't bad at all after the changes. In fact, it's more in line with what it is supposed to be. Its real strength level. To understand that concept you have to understand what a support is and how it came to be. A traditional support is a champion that is NOT gold reliant and can assist the team with utility and protection with just the tools in his kit. Take thresh as a good traditional example, he can use his abilities to peel for his allies and to disrupt the enemy and catch them with his hook. He doesn't need any items to be useful. A support is specifically a role that SACRIFICES his own gold gain so that a teammate can get stronger faster. That's what it was originally invented for. A term "funnel" should be familiar by now. So if we use supports of season 9 as examples, they didn't sacrifice their own gains anymore because they had other means to get gold easily. So suddenly they gained power when they should have been giving it up in exchange for getting a stronger ally. The support is supposed to assist his team, not to be the main character of an anime themselves that dominates the game and pulls gold out of his butt.
If it was the most overpowered role then the role would have had most players. I already can you see how you will be filled-in for a role because even more support players lose their interest in supporting. All support items were made to attract more players for the role and to make them to feel being more useful than just being adc's dog.
SODXI (EUNE)
: So my wave-clearing zil that could solo stall the game for 20 minutes until rest of the zoo caught up will make the team loose gold. Plus while the item is free, it's trash, not worth a spot.
OTP zil here. Same thoughts, though I really enjoyed the comment above and add my own thought- sell useless item once we get off lane and buy pink wards from wave clearing. There are pretty much always 1 or 2 players who sux, so taking their spot is better option than being another useless player because of useless support item.
: For Frostfang it takes around 22-25min usually until the new system gives you less gold than the old one; that is not taking into account the increased passive generation and assuming you proc your tribute constantly - which is an unrealistic assumption as you won't really proc it after the laning phase anyway.
Just has my 1st game in new patch. As Zyra i got Frostfang before 8min, then Shard of true Ice upgrade got before 14 minutes. It was a sad game, as opponents either were really bad, or Lux support was afraid of being mana/CDR deprived to counter me.
Wex0r (EUW)
: Think your going about it the wrong way, support items is for supporting if your farming in other lanes ect then something is wrong. For extra gold instead of farming else where try to push the lane for tower plates.
Extra gold is nowhere close to what all other players earns by farming. It's straight forward nerf of support role.
Just Cat (EUW)
: So... support was not only put back where it used to be deadrole but actually nerfed beyond that?
> [{quoted}](name=Just Cat,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=pqoMqyVZ,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-11-20T16:01:43.905+0000) > > Sure you get free gold but once u earn 1k that's it no more free procs but not only that, if u attempt to farm in lane (side lanes) you actually get punished and get reduced gold. Am i making a mistake or something? As Zilean OTP i consider selling support item once i get off lane. No point being neutered just to be able to place few extra wards. IMO 5v4 at this point will be better for my win score.
DasIstNyul (EUNE)
: What meta will s10 be?
Assassins meta with Rengar and Kha being a flag bearers. New items for assassins and less map vision only serves assassins.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=CJXander,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=cBR5tHfI,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2019-11-20T11:05:43.016+0000) > > The lack of CDR and mana regen are bigger than the gold cut, i will simply switch to jungle or adc. Well bad news for you: Jungle gold and exp are nerfed. ADC xp is nerfed, both for you and your support. And before you think about it: Conqueror was nerfed. So no more bruisers domination in the top lane. Do you like tanks? And lethality is supposed to be out of the roof now. So prepare to be nuked by some random assassin in the mid! What you gonna do? {{sticker:sg-lulu}}
Jungle gold and exp are nerfed. Not true. only raptors and krugos got nerfed. Gromp and Wolves got buffed.
Just Cat (EUW)
: So... support was not only put back where it used to be deadrole but actually nerfed beyond that?
Pretty much so. They try to reduce support aggressiveness and do more mid/late game warding champs.
Uraraka (EUNE)
: Because they removed the "requirement of ally nearby", they need some way to stop solo laners from abusing support items. Also, it is aimed for pro play where stuff like {{champion:86}} {{champion:350}} , {{champion:163}} {{champion:80}} ,{{champion:37}} {{champion:44}} kind of bot lane start with dual supp items to maximize the gold efficiency from them. Also also, with AD support items having no restriction for ranged champions (because they wanted to shove in {{champion:235}} ) ADC can start with it and duo supp start means more gold obtained as well as more vision. On top of all these, they don't want supp to be clearing minions even if it means they're in base without sacrificing anything-so they added this Anti-poaching passive. Previously Spellthief had a passive like "killing a minion/monster" will reduce the tribute and once upgraded to Frostfang it was removed, which is good because during laning taking cs isn't good as supp-but after laning there are times where taking extra gold is useful. Now taking cs as support is discouraged because in pro play and in top 1-2% of ladder, support doesn't need it-so just throw it on entire player base.
Thank you for reply. So does it apply only for those who have Support items ? And what if I have support item but at some point I need to start farming as maybe one of players is AFK or for any other reason support needs to farm ?
Rioter Comments
: There isn't ANY OFFICIAL RULE not allowing support kill creep. There isn't ANY OFFICIAL RULE not allowing jungler to never gank. There isn't ANY OFFICIAL RULE not allowing Top laner to never join team fights. There isn't ANY OFFICIAL RULE not allowing Mid laner to never hit opponents. And there isn't ANY OFFICIAL RULE not allowing someone to remain Iron. The thing is, I cannot judge your actions out of context. Because it's possible that sometimes your ADC does suck and you need to find a way to make up for it. Who can blame you? Still, if you are a demanding player, you probably need to look for an ADC to duo with, who will understand your unique playstyle, and that your actions are not a result of frustration, but for the best of the team. Keep it up!
Finally a wise respond. Indeed I agree, with duo guys i got Plat 2 with my play style. i don't need to take his cs as he knows how to play around zilean.
: There is a big difference between game rules that Riot have compared to expectations set forth by the community. The whole "supports not taking any farm" thing is something the community came up with, not Riot. In short, I do not believe you should be punished for this and all those adc players who get butthurt over a support taking farm at all need to go %%%% themselves.
Community sets meta expectations. Zilean by design can't be more far from meta. As long as i don't break game play rules i shouldn't be intimidated by others, right ?
: > [{quoted}](name=GetDragonOrLose,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=oLilulh3,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2019-11-13T15:04:06.380+0000) > > there is scenario for you: > Jungler gives shot call for dragon, so i go and help with dragon, meanwhile adc ignore calls and keep farming and doesn't care if we gonna die at dragon fight or just in general ignores shot calls. Makes sense ? It can make sense because most junglers, around level 6, can take dragon solo or anyway they definetely don't need other 2 to help them. The support or the mid alone should be more than enough to defend yourself if something bad happens. More to the point, if the bot suddenly disappear while CS is going to waste, that's definetely a tip that you are at dragon and the opponents can rush there and try and stop you. If they see the ADC alone in bot, they may not connect the dots. And then again and again, CS is important so if you really want to go to dragon while the lane is full, just push it as fast as you can and then join the jungler (regardless of the ADc joining you or not). The one you presented it's simply a way more complex situation than you think. Jumping at the conclusion that your ADC is trolling and should be "punished" because he didn't come to dragon when you ask it is simply wrong.
The way I see: if adc is not cooperative, I am not cooperative with ADC.
Dado600 (EUW)
: You have been stealing your adc's cs consistently every game. [Match history](https://i.imgur.com/8mFIQmJ.png) Your average cs is way too high for someone who has 100% support games. Are we supposed to believe that you have a bad adc who sabotages the game every single game? There's even games where you have more cs than your adc.
Buddy, I play AP and zilean is one of the best wave clearing champs. I never "steal" cs on the lane if I consider ADC is on par or better than my skill.
: If you adc is awful to the point of flaming or trolling, the "best" you can do is supporting someone else, not stealing creeps. You have no obligation to ALWAYS babysitting your ADC for whole game, but you still have an obligation to try and win the game. And griefing your ADC by stealing CS is not playing to win, regardless of you thinking you could use those CS to carry the game as support or not.
I don't call it griefing as i can carry myself when adc sucks, all i need are items. Btw, describe me "stealing" as i don't think there is an official rule that taking CS is "stealing".
Arcade Lulu (EUNE)
: In some games you have 100+ cs?!?!?!? And you build full ap If you want to farm that bad and go full ap, go play midlane or something
I always play AP as support. Zilean has 90% ap scaling. Too many counters for zilean to play as solo laner. It's more safe to play Zilean from support role and build AP carry.
: Define what you mean by "not helping".
there is scenario for you: Jungler gives shot call for dragon, so i go and help with dragon, meanwhile adc ignores calls and keeps farming without consideration if we gonna die at dragon fight or just in general ignores shot calls. Makes sense ?
Bæka (EUW)
: Your adc is probably not helping the team because you are taking their income
Probably my English is not good enough if you don't understand that I take cs ONLY if i see adc is not helpful or just plainly being bad. Isn't that clear ?
PKSquid (EUW)
: no, but it might be interpreted as actively sabotaging your team
Rioter Comments
: Ye, let's nerf someone who requires high skill to play and already sufferers in high elos. And people only ban him cause they don't like that 1 thing his kit provide. I hope next champion who get nerf'd is Sion's HP. Oh lets remove Sion HP stacking, that will help us. After all he is annoying to play against.
Doesn't require much skill and he is currently one of the strongest suppports.
: The Pyke nerfs.. too horrible.
He is still one of the most bannable champs in the game. Still 2nd most annoying champ after Yasuo.
Sunwise (EUNE)
: What am I supposed to do when Queued up with a Yasuo exactly?
I don't know why somebody downvoted you. Millions of players experiencing what you just said.

GetDragonOrLose

Level 73 (EUNE)
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