: As a Janna and Support Main i finally have to say it. At First i though the same as you, but after several games, where in ANY GAME that last longerthen 35 minutes i could get FULLBUILD. **Those people who complain about the gold are eather autofill supports, or people who think they can abuse an AP Carry botlane. thats the best about the new season, no more broken velkoz, brand, veigar, annie, xerath supports...** When i compare my Average Gold income in Season 9 (over 300 games) its 9,9k gold Now i compare this with my 25 games i have in Preseason its 9,6k gold. so a 300 gold difference. Neatherless. in many games i can run the complete support build: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/466523540368392193/648436681808150528/unknown.png https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/466523540368392193/648436909193822229/unknown.png https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/466523540368392193/648436611444637698/unknown.png **Even in games where u get STOMPED you still get atleast 3 full items + boots.** (And No i dont even use the free boots rune, i use Sorcery/Life for shield power/heal power below 40% life) https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/466523540368392193/648436798321852416/unknown.png **So yeah if u want to complain you cant run 15k gold support full AP carry buidls anymore, then you are right, but normal ~10k support builds are doable in like every game** {{sticker:sg-janna}} ______________________ **If u still argue u miss gold, make it like in Season 1 where the support snack the Cannon minion from the waves. ** also when i compare his profile. he got not many gold in Season 9 eather. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/466523540368392193/648438962959941642/unknown.png Also he only played senna support game in Preseason yet, so i wonder how he got his "opinion", an AD Lethality support and Udyr doesnt realy count. ___________________ How about play the Real Supports again: * Nami * Janna * Soraka * Sona * Lulu * Morgana * Allistar * Leona * Thresh * BLitzcrank -------------------------- They all dont need a rabadons or warmogs or other expensiv items,
Thank you for responding with more or less dissing towards my post but lets ignore that, and lets take EVERYTHING into consideration. As with others I'll address all your points and not just some: > Those people who complain about the gold are eather autofill supports, or people who think they can abuse an AP Carry botlane. thats the best about the new season, no more broken velkoz, brand, veigar, annie, xerath supports... I hope you're not reffering to me "complaining" about the new changes, because first of all I'm not an autofill, 2nd I don't play AP Mages on the role as much as you see in your games. And no, those champions are still as effective as they were, they didn't get their kits toned down, they just got put back in passive gold income. > Even in games where u get STOMPED you still get atleast 3 full items + boots. (And No i dont even use the free boots rune, i use Sorcery/Life for shield power/heal power below 40% life) So yeah if u want to complain you cant run 15k gold support full AP carry buidls anymore, then you are right, but normal ~10k support builds are doable in like every game In none of my games have I bought an item that's expensive or out of proportion for my champion and role, I don't see why anyone would do that. But then since your brining accounts history into play at least bring out the full picture. In none of my games had I played an AP mage bot, or purchased AP expensive items for no reason (if you find such games in massive occurence do show). **Disclaimer**: Before you see this as bashing or trashing your rank/skill, just know is that I'm using it to prove a point not to deminish you. Since thats how it's majorly portrayed around here. Since people doubt my ranking previous season because I had decayed from master tier and on op.gg the tier graph option is unavialbe for me to show, I got no evidence yet. This goes back to the reason why I do check ups on peoples accounts before I start writting, you need to have credibility behind your name so your words can be backed up by something. There is a reason you're the rank that you're and say the things that you're saying. Let me explain, 1. You finish off your support item before you have every other item completed (around your 3-4th item usually from what I saw), which let alone is why you think you get more gold from the current support item because you're not **WASTING** 950g on the T3 which only gives you 1 additional ward and almost irrelevant stat increases. The T3 upgrade should only be made if you're done with all of your other items and then finish it off. 2. You purchase Rabbadons, Ludens, Deadmans, Rod of Ages on a **SUPPORT**. So yeah I guess you're right when you say you're not going to be able to buy those items anymore, because you shouldn't buy them in the first place. > also when i compare his profile. he got not many gold in Season 9 eather. The thing is with this statement you're just looking at my overall gold, and the gold ONLY from the support items, you're targeting supports getting less gold overall instead of less gold from support items which is disproportionate with what this post was aiming towards. But I'll elaborate on it anyway. Support gold income is differenet in every rank, mostly noticeable from the lowest to the highest. Game duration is different, objective priority, and KDA most notably (Reffering to the amount of assists and/or gathered, and not the end result when you sum up Kills and assists then divide by number of deaths). So you can't compare those numbers, you can compare the numbers of people in your division but across numbers of divisions, that just makes no sense. Again, not here to fight so I expect people not to take this persoanlly because I'm not talking about you being bad or directing hate towards you, I'm saying why people at your skill level are what they are and say what they say, you were just an example.
POMÆ (EUW)
: You're hella smart fella i say. Riots just finished what they tried to implement in season 3. Viable support role with good income and providing vision for the team. Supports were never supposed to be the strongest role for the first 10 minutes of the game, they were meant to... well, support! Prior to season 10 changes ad carries could only rely on getting good support otherwise line was completely lost, now botlane is a lane for 2 people. If you want to do most damage in the team, why not just play midlane? Good support still makes a huge difference against a mediocre one, all you need to do is shift your expectations from getting more gold and damage in team to helping your team get more gold and do more damage. And now about your screenshots. You don't account for the facts of getting tower plates, huge shutdowns or killing enemies worth only 100 gold. Also in the second game your opponents don't even have a support. So much for a master tier. P.S. while jungle changes are healthy for the game they make literally half of the junglers outclassed by those who have good clear.
As I said the numbers are threre not to be PRECISE, they are rough avg. number taken into account, supports don't take shutdown golds, and when they do take turret platings they get maximum 80g a plate because you don't take solo plating gold. If everybody wants 100% DETAILED numbers behind both games it's not a problem for me to pull up the replays and do detailed math behind both of the games and then summarize both of them gold wise since that's what everyone cares about. While I made such a long post, everybody is nitpicking what they want but mostly the screenshots from those 2 games, also I don't know why you're bashing my rank when I wrote my rank because I want to have some credibility behind my name and I'm not some low tier player making a post and ranting nonsense, because people are interested in who's saying what he is saying, if you're that curious about my rank and how it progressed down the season I'm not ashamed to talk about that as well, I got nothing to hide. I didn't make this post to fight with people who don't see the clear picture just because they focus on those 2 games and ignore EVERYTHING else that was written down in that post. But it seems that's the case in the end. Thanks for being civilised in your response.
M3GTRDragon (EUNE)
: sorry to piss you off, but if you can't due a better arquement other than their rank and playstats, you might as well not start a thread at all. it's a bad habbit...one thats more common to see in politics than actual discussions.
Thank you for being respectful and for viewing the whole picture as a whole and of course actually reading through the thread. I'll respond to your previous statements here. I didn't go for insults to begin with, I really tried to hold myself back from negative hate towards him, because he completely ignored my whole thread, continued to call "my logic" flawed 5 times in a post and twisting the facts that I gave which he percived as opinions, I don't know how numbers and stats pulled from patch notes can be my opinion, I just displayed the game how it really was, nothing personal was given in my post besides the changes I suggested nearing the end of the post. He then continues to fight with me while having nothing to counter my inital post, he just picked the parts he liked and made pointless statements unrelated to the post, repeating how my logic is "flawed". Constantly playing the passive - aggressive card and in the end making me blow my steam because he succeeded in his provocation, good on him. In regards to me looking at peoples ranks and stats. I don't do that to hate on them or bash them. I did it because I don't want people who have no experience on the role, or are low in ranks to make obnoxious faulty statements saying this is good because it looks good on paper. Would you value a statement the same way if it came from someone whos an expert in that field or someone else who just likes to act like he knows just by looking at something? Not calling myself an expert nor am I bashing anyone, saying this on a global scale. Would you belive if your everyday friend told you're sick or would you belive a doctor who has spent time in that field. Thats the reasoning behind why I did it. The game has enough toxicity as it is, didn't come here to search for people to fight, but an average players mentality is to attack the post by just reading the title and not spend a second reading the post. I have no political bashing intentions nor am I interested in politics. I just want the full picture when I'm talking to someone. Again, thanks for being reasonable with your points and having actual manors, this is what I expected from everyone.
: no matter how long youre posts get, your logic is still flawed .... theres no proof in your posts, no math, just what you think > Yes, I did comapre 2 Normal Blind PIck games with different stats and different game length. But since you're making a BIG THING OUT OF NOTHING no, i just pointed out, your logic is flawed, and it still is, that comparison is invalid. > So, your opinion means nothing when it comes down to a debate revolved around arugements and proving a point, I brought facts on the table, you're just brining words backed up by nothing. at least i state my opinions as such, and dont camouflage them as facts. > How can they last 30 mins when they're decided at the 15min mark? You're contradicting yourself, unless you reffer to the fact the game is decided at the 15 min mark and people just extend it to the 30 min mark because they don't know how to end the game? i dont contradict myself here, your logic is again flawed, you might end the game at 30 min, but at the 15 min mark you swing the game in your favor, so your winrate becomes 95% after that 15 min mark, it doesnt matter who made the last hit at the nexus, that was basically inevitable after the 15 min mark, how you can not understand this basic thing about how games play out, is beyond me ... > Previous Spellthiefs gave 11g on T1, 22g on T2 and T3 per proc. Comparison to live which is 15g on EVERY TIER which is 7g less per proc. comparison to before. previous gave 11g on T1, 15g on T2 and 22g on T3, just shows how well you are informed ... new gives actually 4g more per proc in early, which is rly everything that matters in short length games. and last: >As with previous people I did a check up on their backstory behind their account so I have some sort of a picture behind their name and why they are saying what they are saying. flawed logic again here... you could just take the argument for what it is and argue against it, instead you first chose to divide attention to the people behind them, as if it would matter...
> [{quoted}](name=Kicherkeks,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=Pad648B6,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2019-11-24T18:52:55.420+0000) > > no matter how long youre posts get, your logic is still flawed .... > theres no proof in your posts, no math, just what you think > > no, i just pointed out, your logic is flawed, and it still is, that comparison is invalid. > > at least i state my opinions as such, and dont camouflage them as facts. > > i dont contradict myself here, your logic is again flawed, you might end the game at 30 min, but at the 15 min mark you swing the game in your favor, so your winrate becomes 95% after that 15 min mark, it doesnt matter who made the last hit at the nexus, that was basically inevitable after the 15 min mark, how you can not understand this basic thing about how games play out, is beyond me ... > > previous gave 11g on T1, 15g on T2 and 22g on T3, just shows how well you are informed ... new gives actually 4g more per proc in early, which is rly everything that matters in short length games. > > and last: > > flawed logic again here... you could just take the argument for what it is and argue against it, instead you first chose to divide attention to the people behind them, as if it would matter... I will not go into a prolonged debate with someone who has litterally no information and brings bs to the table, go bark on another door, you're in the wrong thread. But what do I know, maybe your 227 W and 229 L really say something behind your name and how much your word holds water. Some things are better left unsaid, i guess you can take that advice and don't say stupid things like this an refrain from making a fool of yourself.
: You did compare 2 games from a NORMAL BLIND PICK, with DIFFERENT STATS and DIFFERENT GAME LENGTHS. It's getting ridicolous... Im all for getting a good rage train going on riot changes, but in all seriousness, make some effort to proof the point. I think support item changes are good. Avg game lengths are around 30 mins, and often the game is decided around 15. New Items give you a better power spike with the 1st and 2nd item you can get (shurelyias, redemption, ardent, you name it) and they give better options to a range of supports (pyke, rakan, senna, thresh, ...)
As with previous people I did a check up on their backstory behind their account so I have some sort of a picture behind their name and why they are saying what they are saying. I'll start by saying you have around 400 games this season on support and you have been playing the role every season so you have experience on the role. Not taking your (negative) champions winrates into account I'll talk to you as a support main to a support main. Yes, I did comapre 2 Normal Blind PIck games with different stats and different game length. But since you're making a BIG THING OUT OF NOTHING I'll adress myu first point, since you're bashing that they are normal games with different game stats and game length you clearly disregarded the fact that I did the math and evened out both games and did the finnal check on the gold difference, you would know if you read the full post to the end and not just take what you like from my post and try to twist it around. Secondly, > make some effort to proof the point. This just goes to show you did not read one bit of this post or you just simply decided to ignore it. Because the WHOLE post is me explaining everything down as simple as it can get so everyone can understand, from every skill level. So I don't know how you can even say that. In response to this, > I think support item changes are good. What you think almost means nothing when it comes down to how it really is, for example: " **I think Thresh is over valued for what he offers comparison to other supports**". But in reality my OPINION is wrong, because it's an opinion and not actual reality. So, your opinion means nothing when it comes down to a debate revolved around arugements and proving a point, I brought facts on the table, you're just brining words backed up by nothing. > Avg game lengths are around 30 mins, and often the game is decided around 15 How can they last 30 mins when they're decided at the 15min mark? You're contradicting yourself, unless you reffer to the fact the game is decided at the 15 min mark and people just extend it to the 30 min mark because they don't know how to end the game? Also, I'm pretty sure you're just saying this out of some random place you've read it. Final point: > New Items give you a better power spike with the 1st and 2nd item you can get (shurelyias, redemption, ardent, you name it) and they give better options to a range of supports (pyke, rakan, senna, thresh, ...) Previous Spellthiefs (Taking this item for example because it's the only item that I can gather raw gold from comapred to random drop rate from Coin or picking what minion to take with Targon). Previous Spellthiefs gave 11g on T1, 22g on T2 and T3 per proc. Comparison to live which is 15g on EVERY TIER which is 7g less per proc. comparison to before. But you're probably saying this because your most played champions are Lux and Soraka and you probably finished Eye of The Watcher as your first item and wasted 950g on the upgrade. So you would think this is good because they took away your ability to waste gold on an item you didn't need to have so early and they gave you options to buy the ACTUAL items you're supose to buy. With that, I hope you got the proof you wanted if you bothered to read it at all.
: It’s not a massacre... supports have existed since S1, gold gen items where added S4... we are currently in a much better spot now than we where back in S1-3 where we didn’t actually get any gold and what we did get went to wards. If supports could survive early league without gold gen we can survive weaker gold gen now, again we are getting way more gold now than we did then
Before replying on your comment I did a check up on your stats. As you can see this is a support role thread, from what I read on your account you've played from S4 till now and skipped S7, in all of your past seasons including this one, you haven't played support at all. I don't want to be rude, but I'm really curious, why are you commenting nonsense? I layed everything down so everyone can understand and yet when you see the evidence in front of you, you still comment this. Either you didn't read what I wrote down and didn't see the images, or you're simply delusional. Also I don't know why're you're commenting about S1-S3 when you haven't experienced them, so please refrain from commenting about that. Regarding gold generation from back then to now, the game is supose to progress for the better, not to regress into something that was bad and had been changed. So it makes no sense for them to go back to that instead of exploring new items and ideas.
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Goki Doki

Level 384 (EUNE)
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