: well... season 9 supports were good cause support champs wern't played at all. the only thing u had as support were mages acting like a roaming APC. and the fact that they could get full build really fast. now the changes r balanced to benefit only real support champs who don't need a full build to be viable. as support main i can say that the change is very beneficial for real support champs but fake mages gonna get gutted by it. ofc there 1 idiot champ whos abusing the CD and mana regen remove now: heimerdinger. his turrets basicly cost zero mana widhout cooldown. this bugger is now terrorising bot lane hard and has become a must ban if u wanna try playing support.
> [{quoted}](name=Kitty Cat Nap,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=K7zIGLmf,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-11-25T09:28:25.694+0000) > > well... season 9 supports were good cause support champs wern't played at all. > the only thing u had as support were mages acting like a roaming APC. > and the fact that they could get full build really fast. > > now the changes r balanced to benefit only real support champs who don't need a full build to be viable. > as support main i can say that the change is very beneficial for real support champs but fake mages gonna get gutted by it. > > > ofc there 1 idiot champ whos abusing the CD and mana regen remove now: heimerdinger. > > his turrets basicly cost zero mana widhout cooldown. > this bugger is now terrorising bot lane hard and has become a must ban if u wanna try playing support. So i take it you want the old days back when noone actually wanted to play support, i dont. We agree to disagree.
: The item you get and the stats it gives should be counted as gold too, that's the point. You can't just get 40AP, 150 health, have to spend 450g less and then don't count it. Let's do some math with just those 3 points I mentioned: * 40 AP is a {{item:1026}} : 850g * 150 health is a {{item:1028}} : 400g * 450g less gold to spend That's a total of 1700g. If we use the numbers you gave, that's basically 2500g in the old version vs 2700g for the new one. The new items are already better than the old ones according to your own numbers... Not sure you can still call it "a crap item". I didn't even take everything into account. On top of that, you're getting that value way earlier into the game. Let's be realistic here for a moment, giving more gold would be totally broken.
> [{quoted}](name=Doom emissary,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=rgrWIApV,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2019-11-25T13:09:46.841+0000) > > The item you get and the stats it gives should be counted as gold too, that's the point. > You can't just get 40AP, 150 health, have to spend 450g less and then don't count it. > Let's do some math with just those 3 points I mentioned: > > * 40 AP is a {{item:1026}} : 850g > * 150 health is a {{item:1028}} : 400g > * 450g less gold to spend > > That's a total of 1700g. If we use the numbers you gave, that's basically 2500g in the old version vs 2700g for the new one. The new items are already better than the old ones according to your own numbers... Not sure you can still call it "a crap item". > > I didn't even take everything into account. On top of that, you're getting that value way earlier into the game. Let's be realistic here for a moment, giving more gold would be totally broken. Ofcourse 40 AP and 150 Health can be crap for a support, most support have core items they need to function well, forcing their gold into other items is not going to make it better for them. That 1700g difference is now being pushed into your stat stick support item so you cant buy the stuff you want.
: Pretty much. It’s preseason, every one has issues and riot get 2 months to sort most of them out. It’s also too early for riot to see the effects stuff like this actually has on the game... so they do need to wait a bit. This is just how preseason works... just gotta wait and see
> [{quoted}](name=swampert919,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=bnyqUhkj,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-25T13:01:49.110+0000) > > Pretty much. > > It’s preseason, every one has issues and riot get 2 months to sort most of them out. > It’s also too early for riot to see the effects stuff like this actually has on the game... so they do need to wait a bit. > > This is just how preseason works... just gotta wait and see I think it is important to point these things out here on the forum, then wait and see. That is my opinion.
: I feel like this would give too much gold... its slowed down for sure but not enough to validate something like this, remember many supports are designed to use no gold, they become terrifying when they actually get gold. Perhaps instead just giving a bit of gold if something dies near them like on ARAM, perhaps removing the gold/10 to compensate. gives a bit more gold without overdoing it.
> [{quoted}](name=swampert919,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=rgrWIApV,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-11-25T12:58:55.861+0000) > > I feel like this would give too much gold... its slowed down for sure but not enough to validate something like this, remember many supports are designed to use no gold, they become terrifying when they actually get gold. > > Perhaps instead just giving a bit of gold if something dies near them like on ARAM, perhaps removing the gold/10 to compensate. gives a bit more gold without overdoing it. Excellent idea, perhaps put that as a passive effect on the support item and make only supports use them.
: When riot lists roles it’s based on what players play so they don’t actually have any control over it. And again if mage supports (that riot actually have stated to support, zyra is one of them) are struggling they will be buffed according... just because these changes hit them hard doesn’t mean there’s an agenda to remove them, Riot would have said so if that’s the plan
> [{quoted}](name=swampert919,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=bnyqUhkj,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-25T12:56:09.470+0000) > > When riot lists roles it’s based on what players play so they don’t actually have any control over it. > > And again if mage supports (that riot actually have stated to support, zyra is one of them) are struggling they will be buffed according... just because these changes hit them hard doesn’t mean there’s an agenda to remove them, Riot would have said so if that’s the plan So basically what you are saying is: "Have faith, young padawan"
: The problem is only psychological because people can't "see" their gold anymore. Let's look at some stats of the old version of Frostfang as an example: * Cost 450g to upgrade * 20 AP * Passive gold : 2 per 10 seconds * Once you finish your other items, you'd have to pay again to upgrade it (which will delay getting an elixir) Now the new finished Shard of True ice: * Don't have to spend 450g * Start buying your other items sooner * 60 AP * 150 health * Passive gold : 3 per 10 seconds Those additional stats + 450g + 1g per 10 seconds more than enough make up for the loss of the tribute effect. On top of that, you are stronger sooner into the game having the last version of your support item + other items rather than just Frostfang. It term of gold and value, you're not losing anything, you might even be winning compared to before, it's just that you don't get to see it. A support now will be stronger than an old support if you compare their stats at the same time of the game (except the first minutes when they are still using the starting item). Basically, think of it like this : Instead of getting a somewhat stable income during all the game, you get tons of it early on (so you are stronger midgame compared to before) but you start getting less late game to keep the same strength as before during that phase. On top of that, during the mid to late game, you'd have to try to come to lane each time to use your stacks which was quite hard for some items as your teammates one shot waves (for {{item:3308}} or you can't get close to enemies to poke them (for {{item:3311}} which hurt your gold generation. While right now, you don't have to worry about that anymore and you can focus on constantly roaming/warding, etc. If you add even more gold to supports now, they will become broken. Midlane mage supports will have 0 drawbacks playing this roles since they will still be getting tons of stats and still have enough gold to buy their expensive mage items.
> [{quoted}](name=Doom emissary,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=rgrWIApV,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-11-25T12:25:45.057+0000) > > The problem is only psychological because people can't "see" their gold anymore. > > Let's look at some stats of the old version of Frostfang as an example: > > * Cost 450g to upgrade > * 20 AP > * Passive gold : 2 per 10 seconds > * Once you finish your other items, you'd have to pay again to upgrade it (which will delay getting an elixir) > > Now the new finished Shard of True ice: > > * Don't have to spend 450g > * Start buying your other items sooner > * 60 AP > * 150 health > * Passive gold : 3 per 10 seconds > > Those additional stats + 450g + 1g per 10 seconds more than enough make up for the loss of the tribute effect. On top of that, you are stronger sooner into the game having the last version of your support item + other items rather than just Frostfang. > It term of gold and value, you're not losing anything, you might even be winning compared to before, it's just that you don't get to see it. A support now will be stronger than an old support if you compare their stats at the same time of the game (except the first minutes when they are still using the starting item). > > Basically, think of it like this : Instead of getting a somewhat stable income during all the game, you get tons of it early on (so you are stronger midgame compared to before) but you start getting less late game to keep the same strength as before during that phase. > On top of that, during the mid to late game, you'd have to try to come to lane each time to use your stacks which was quite hard for some items as your teammates one shot waves (for {{item:3308}} or you can't get close to enemies to poke them (for {{item:3311}} which hurt your gold generation. While right now, you don't have to worry about that anymore and you can focus on constantly roaming/warding, etc. > > If you add even more gold to supports now, they will become broken. Midlane mage supports will have 0 drawbacks playing this roles since they will still be getting tons of stats and still have enough gold to buy their expensive mage items. The old support items easily gave you 2500g in a full game, where you now get 1000g, the only thing you get in return is a crap item. That's why there are people upset.
: Yeah hence why I said most. Supports can be split into two groups: ‘true’ supports and repurposed supports. ‘True’ supports are the ones that are designed to be a support and therefore have been designed to work on a low budget (especially pre S4 supports where gold gen was terrible). Reporposed supports are the ones that where designed for other roles and migrated to support and therefore often where designed with an actual gold income in mind. This change doesn’t affect ‘true’ supports much, as I said they are pretty much designed to still work without items (hence why support items tend to focus on actives rather than stats)... repurposed supports are mixed, some like Zyra struggle because they need items to function... others like Naut can function without. It hits mage supports pretty hard, the rest will probably adapt and be more or less fine. Might see a lot of these repurposed supports move out of support and back into farming roles, or could get buffs to help them function better.
> [{quoted}](name=swampert919,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=bnyqUhkj,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-11-25T11:44:46.576+0000) > > Yeah hence why I said most. > > Supports can be split into two groups: ‘true’ supports and repurposed supports. > ‘True’ supports are the ones that are designed to be a support and therefore have been designed to work on a low budget (especially pre S4 supports where gold gen was terrible). > Reporposed supports are the ones that where designed for other roles and migrated to support and therefore often where designed with an actual gold income in mind. > > This change doesn’t affect ‘true’ supports much, as I said they are pretty much designed to still work without items (hence why support items tend to focus on actives rather than stats)... repurposed supports are mixed, some like Zyra struggle because they need items to function... others like Naut can function without. > > It hits mage supports pretty hard, the rest will probably adapt and be more or less fine. Might see a lot of these repurposed supports move out of support and back into farming roles, or could get buffs to help them function better. Yeah that pretty much the reason of the thread. If Riots plan is to remove all the mage supports, then they should not be listing mage supports on their own support page as supports and provide an explanation to why they are downsizing the support champion pool. I dont have a problem playing the same old 4-5 "true" supports that we have been playing for ages, but i can understand why many people do.
: How to fix the support items in their current states
Basically any kind of gold income is needed on the tier3 items, doesnt matter how it is done. Otherwise supports are in a much worse spot then in last season.
Uraraka (EUNE)
: I think getting drakes is more important than winning the bot lane now, so any champ who can get lane priority and bully opponents is viable. {{champion:235}} is best overall pick because she can get priority, push opponents back while having good scaling for compensating lack of gold mid-late game. Mages are fine as long as they collect some farm and get some mana item first back. {{champion:555}} is hit or miss based on first 2-3 levels of how good adc can follow up his level 2 all ins and I think only he, out of all hook supports or melee supports, he scale better mid-late game due to his gold generation from R. Taking few cs (2-3cs/min) with {{champion:143}} {{champion:74}} (yes I am trying him on supp) is good and as long as the adc player is good it is guaranteed lane priority. Problem is that junglers ignore drake even when they're so easy to take now and don't even get 1 rift herald; though it is normal games I play, with the ranks being near my rank I can say that it is somewhat similar to a solo queue game and if anything I would like the Tier 3 support items to not have the cs penalty. Because late game, many supports can and need to collect/clear waves and this along with no gold generation from on hit/execute active means games needs to be ended before 25 mins always. Seeing how they added lot of lethality and bushes for assassins to abuse, the company surely wants games to end faster and I would put the support item changes in similar way.
> [{quoted}](name=Uraraka,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=bnyqUhkj,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-11-25T10:37:13.009+0000) > > I think getting drakes is more important than winning the bot lane now, so any champ who can get lane priority and bully opponents is viable. {{champion:235}} is best overall pick because she can get priority, push opponents back while having good scaling for compensating lack of gold mid-late game. Mages are fine as long as they collect some farm and get some mana item first back. {{champion:555}} is hit or miss based on first 2-3 levels of how good adc can follow up his level 2 all ins and I think only he, out of all hook supports or melee supports, he scale better mid-late game due to his gold generation from R. > > Taking few cs (2-3cs/min) with {{champion:143}} {{champion:74}} (yes I am trying him on supp) is good and as long as the adc player is good it is guaranteed lane priority. Problem is that junglers ignore drake even when they're so easy to take now and don't even get 1 rift herald; though it is normal games I play, with the ranks being near my rank I can say that it is somewhat similar to a solo queue game and if anything I would like the Tier 3 support items to not have the cs penalty. Because late game, many supports can and need to collect/clear waves and this along with no gold generation from on hit/execute active means games needs to be ended before 25 mins always. > > Seeing how they added lot of lethality and bushes for assassins to abuse, the company surely wants games to end faster and I would put the support item changes in similar way. Im also feeling that AP supports need to take CS or KS in order to be viable now. Since most adc's wont give farm to the support they will in my opinion end up being not viable unless adc's change their mind.
: Nautilus is still really strong as the only item you need to be viable on him is Knight's Vow. Thresh is also fine as he has so much utility that he doesn't really need any items to be viable. It will be interesting to see what happens when the pro scene starts up again which will give us a better idea of how major the changes really are.
> [{quoted}](name=Wandering Mist,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=bnyqUhkj,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-11-25T09:48:33.839+0000) > > Nautilus is still really strong as the only item you need to be viable on him is Knight's Vow. Thresh is also fine as he has so much utility that he doesn't really need any items to be viable. It will be interesting to see what happens when the pro scene starts up again which will give us a better idea of how major the changes really are. If we compare Nautilus in season 9 to season 10, the difference will be that now at 25 mins you will tanking for example a 4 item adc with yourself on 1 item instead of 2 items, im sure it works, just for less time. But i totally agree with you that he is still strong, he just cant tank lategame as much as last season.
: Thing with supports is that most of them are designed entirely to not need gold... so for most supports while it hits them hard they will still be viable... in the end your picking champions like thresh or Janna for what’s in their kit not what they will end up building But also with how the new support items work you can afford a more expensive first item (for example hourglass)... which could open up new options worth exploring.
> [{quoted}](name=swampert919,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=bnyqUhkj,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-11-25T10:00:55.539+0000) > > Thing with supports is that most of them are designed entirely to not need gold... so for most supports while it hits them hard they will still be viable... in the end your picking champions like thresh or Janna for what’s in their kit not what they will end up building > > But also with how the new support items work you can afford a more expensive first item (for example hourglass)... which could open up new options worth exploring. I have about 400k on Zyra and if we talk about her specifically the nerf is substancial. Her 2 item spike, Liandrys and Rylais is delayed by about 10 mins. In my opinion, supports that need 1 item are still fine, those that need 2 are not.
Rioter Comments
SmokerT69 (EUW)
: Support Changes
Your friend is right. In season 9 supports were good, not so much anymore, you could play most champs as support. Supports that are not item dependant are still decent, all other supports got heavily nerfed. R.I.P support role
: Season 10 tier 3 support items
You lose about 1000-2000g depending on how long the game is per game compared to season 9. The loss of income when you get your "free mandatory upgrade" to tier 3 is very noticeable, unless you CS or KS you will just not get anymore items then what you had at that point.
BranWagon (EUW)
: Season 10 dissatisfaction (support main)
A 9.23 Support has about 1000-1500g less per game then a 9.22 Support and most earlygame stats removed. For a role that already had less gold thats alot. R.I.P Support
: Idk, i guess you were using spellthiefs often, and now that 2 (!) AP and the passive are gone, you feel weaker, but in reality, nothing rly changed. yes, spellthief supports are a bit weaker, but not by that much, and when you account for the free upgrades you dont actually lose money to very late in the game, where, realistically, nothing rly is changed by the support having 200g more or not ... Its important in the early for your first item, where that redemption or locket can swing the fight, but when everyone has 4 items, you either have the drks/turrets/heralds/etc. or you dont. The changes make it so you can get that first item earlier and thats what matters. And for every support that was not using spellthiefs, there are now just straight up better options, with the new ad, ap+health, ad+health support items.
> [{quoted}](name=Kicherkeks,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=VueE6uJX,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2019-11-23T14:55:36.006+0000) > > Idk, i guess you were using spellthiefs often, and now that 2 (!) AP and the passive are gone, you feel weaker, but in reality, nothing rly changed. > > yes, spellthief supports are a bit weaker, but not by that much, and when you account for the free upgrades you dont actually lose money to very late in the game, where, realistically, nothing rly is changed by the support having 200g more or not ... Its important in the early for your first item, where that redemption or locket can swing the fight, but when everyone has 4 items, you either have the drks/turrets/heralds/etc. or you dont. The changes make it so you can get that first item earlier and thats what matters. > > And for every support that was not using spellthiefs, there are now just straight up better options, with the new ad, ap+health, ad+health support items. Yes you are weaker early game, the only time you actually get better from the new items is when you buy your first item 450g faster and when you get the tier 3 support item but then you lose your income also. In a full game the old support items gave you about 2500g, the new gives you 1000g, that is a difference of 1500g. So as a support in 9.23 you will have about 1500g less then you did in 9.22, i cant really see the better options from that.
: Actually, i think the support items are fine, its easier to finish the quests now, for any support that didnt use the old spellthiefs, for old spellthiefs users its basically the same. You basically have always the same or more gold until min 15, than you wouldve gotten with the old items. After the upgrades you basically got 800g gifted for free (upgrades dont cost gold anymore) in comparison to old items, and yes then you lose out on some gold because you cant use the passive anymore. But in 95% of the games, the game is pretty much decided at that point and realistically, when were you ever able to properly use the old relic shield in late game? TLDR: I think the changes are good, give more options, you get in most cases more gold early, and everything else doesn't rly matter, since games are not that long right now.
> [{quoted}](name=Kicherkeks,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=VueE6uJX,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2019-11-23T13:42:19.449+0000) > > Actually, i think the support items are fine, its easier to finish the quests now, for any support that didnt use the old spellthiefs, for old spellthiefs users its basically the same. You basically have always the same or more gold until min 15, than you wouldve gotten with the old items. After the upgrades you basically got 800g gifted for free (upgrades dont cost gold anymore) in comparison to old items, and yes then you lose out on some gold because you cant use the passive anymore. But in 95% of the games, the game is pretty much decided at that point and realistically, when were you ever able to properly use the old relic shield in late game? > > TLDR: I think the changes are good, give more options, you get in most cases more gold early, and everything else doesn't rly matter, since games are not that long right now. You are much weaker early but with slightly more gold now, a small powerspike at 15-20 mins to then fall off drasticly after that. I dont see how you get more options by not getting gold anymore, you can get your first item 450g faster, but you lose income for the rest of the game pretty much.
: Or stop spamming abilities like an absolute moron and opt for mana regen early items, this update will just show who can't control their mana pool, and who should learn to preserve mana for emergency abilities only.
> [{quoted}](name=Doby flonk u mom,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=kwu1sYPq,comment-id=0028000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-22T09:00:51.042+0000) > > Or stop spamming abilities like an absolute moron and opt for mana regen early items, this update will just show who can't control their mana pool, and who should learn to preserve mana for emergency abilities only. Wrong, this update will show who can or can't play with 0 goldincome after 20 mins for the rest of the game. Yes its a nerf to earlygame, that nerf is minor compared to the lategame nerf. R.I.P Support
: You're supposed to have 4 support items, boots and a vision ward. Leave the farm for the other 4 players.
> [{quoted}](name=Pentasteal Sona,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=VueE6uJX,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2019-11-23T11:14:19.712+0000) > > You're supposed to have 4 support items, boots and a vision ward. > Leave the farm for the other 4 players. Since supports stop getting gold at about 20 mins now when you get your tier3 item, you will never be able to buy more then half of what you said unless CS/KS are being taken.
: i'm no expert but as support main it feels like the gold shutdown is not working at all. even when the item is complete i still get the "g per sec" and i don't get less gold fro minions at all. only thing u don't get anymore is the proc on attacking/instant minion kill on relic.
> [{quoted}](name=Kitty Cat Nap,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=VueE6uJX,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-11-23T09:12:42.492+0000) > > i'm no expert but as support main it feels like the gold shutdown is not working at all. > > even when the item is complete i still get the "g per sec" and i don't get less gold fro minions at all. > > only thing u don't get anymore is the proc on attacking/instant minion kill on relic. Yeah the 3g per 10 sec is still active. The "only" thing you dont get is the other 15g per 10 sec (if you proc it well). Perhaps they can give us the option of not upgrading to tier3, atleast we dont have to sell it then.
: supp items
They should just keep the gold generation on tier3 support items, problem solved, no CS/KS needed.
Rioter Comments

SRT Nopliz

Level 232 (EUNE)
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