: kaisa has 4 skins, because people actually play her, comparing to ivern and aurelion sol, who are 2 of the least played champions in the game. While i agree that they should have made proper skins and not these abominations, you can't compare them to what was the top pickrate adc.
I KNOW RIGHT I was a main Ivern when he came out and I hated the candy skin tbh, was waiting ages for something I liked, so this really disappointed me
M3GTRDragon (EUNE)
: 3) skins should not offer gameplay buffs. So thats a hard NOPE from me. 1 and 2 tho, agreed
Oh yeah, skins should not give buffs, I was thinking more a generic buff or change for ivern across the board, not skin specific, but 1 and 2 were my main points
Rioter Comments
: Nothing on Taric scales with AD. He has AP scalings though.
His Heal stun and passive have ap scalings. but it is so low that it rarely goes up by more than 1-5 (maybe more in the late game) whereas 5 AD applies every auto attack so his damage output mainly comes from that. Taric is an auto-attack champion. His abilities scale mostly with HP and Armour. If you play taric aggressively you'll see his AD and Magic damage are about equal. He benefits from AD because he is ALWAYS aiming to auto attack something whereas any AP he gains is wasted as he would get the same if not more benefit from Armour or HP items. I understand why he's seen as an AP champ but in actual practice buying AD items on him does more than buying AP items (though again you would focus on Armour and HP anyway) TL;DR Don't look at his scalings look at his gameplay. He Auto attacks more than he casts Stun and he gains more damage on his passive with AD than AP. (And his heal scaling is atrocious - one would only by HP to make that go up)
: Can someone explain to me the matchmaking system...
I posted this ages ago and did read most of the replies then. But I just wanted to say thanks to all the helpful people out there who responded :)
Rioter Comments
Matabu285 (EUNE)
: Lobby Remake, How to play without troll's
Not a good idea in the slightest. Every time you don't meta pick you get booted and leave buster? More players make excuses about "troll picks" when they are the ones that feed or just suck. The only reason to have a lobby remake is if someone locked the "wrong" champion. Or something akin to that to which it should be unanimous and no leave buster. And EVEN THEN people would just do that when they get hard countered or something (like full ad team into Malph - Taric -Rammus comp)
Rioter Comments
Ahwu (EUW)
: Usually Liandrys will give you a bigger power spike in the mid game when acquiring the item. Considering that you're most likely to pick up sorcerers, 30 mpen sometimes does feel overwhelming against enemy carries. Void staff is mandatory late, so basically it's just about the build order; flat mpen is better mid, %mpen is better late, self-explanatory.
: I almost always go both. If they don't have a single tank(think Riven Master Yi any mid any ADC and Sona and all glass cannon comp) i swap Void for GA. {{champion:34}} {{item:3020}} {{item:3040}} {{item:3089}} {{item:3151}} {{item:3135}}
you're missing one lol overall I agree, I like having deathcap, but I find now that hourglass can be used while ur ult is up, I build it pretty much every game. SoloQ lacks good peel, so being able to hourglass that fiora and watch her hp shred when she dives you is very satisfying. Combine that with GA and I still have nice damage but am very tanky to AD champs, if I dn't need to be, the void liandrys is great at hp shredding usually these {{item:3027}} {{item:3003}} {{item:3020}} {{item:3157}} {{item:3151}} then one of these {{item:3135}} {{item:3026}} {{item:3026}}
: And the slow is more than useless on her!
I often go Liandries for the hp more than the damage, but in games were I am snowballing, I think which is better to just end game quickly while I have lead and am already hard to kill. I don't get rylais cause all I can tell it's a complete waste of stats apart from the base hp and ap, which i can get from the slightly more expensive but far more damage liandrys
Rioter Comments
l MrD l (EUW)
: doesnt have to. after the E slow rylais can continuously slow too with other things in his kit being W passive slows or daisy auto slows. But also with liandrys its mainly used for the extra damage whereas ivern being a support isnt about damage hes about his utility and the rylais will improve on what he has more making what he does more reliable. So in a way he gets more out of rylais than liandrys. ANother main factor is the cost. Liandrys is 3100 wheeras rylais is 2600. Thats a 500 gold difference Ask yourself 3100 for an item which boosts your hp and ap for extra damage which you dont need sicne your main job is to support and not to deal damage as his kit is more reliable to support as he lacks the damage to be a carry. Or 2600 gold for an item which increases your HP and AP and prove a slow for W passive slows to help for your carries to kite as well as daisy to reach targets easier on top of daisies autoes becoming slows to help get the 3rd auto off easily making your ivern do his thing more reliable. you vould say why build hp on sion when he has his W? why build tri or iceborn on nasus when he has his Q and W slow? You increase their effectiveness
I agree that the gold effectiveness is good when support especially (but Ivern's build is quite cheap, I often full build and can sell items for more effective ones when game drags one) Crystal sceptre only works with his W passive, not his E, not his Q, and not Daisy's autos (I tested it, again, unless they changed it). This makes it a incredible poor comparison to Tri or Iceborn that can be repeatedly triggered for continuous affect, whereas Rylais can only be triggered by his autos, which, depending on build or situation is not always reliable, since he needs brush, and needs to be tanky enough to not get bursted when he gets close enough to use them. Overall I agree with your reasoning (even if your last statement went too far), however I would add, that the damage providing by Liandris goes a long way, it as a single damage item in an otherwise full tank build, gives him enough of a threat/pressure to zone squishy champs, helps deal continuous damage to tanks that you are peeling, or helps you even secure kills if you are last man standing or are caught solo while warding. I find that getting more CDR more quickly, has more benefit and more reliable slows than W passive, don't get me wrong though, I am discussing this with you because I actually value your opinion and want to see if you can convince me to change my core build, don't get offended or anything :D
: Is There any reason to use Rod of Ages Anymore?
Thanks guys, that actually helps! I can see why some champs might prefer the RoA then, more stats less gold, I can think of a number of ways that helps ^^
Rioter Comments
l MrD l (EUW)
: before its nerf i always bought it but now i consider it as an optional choice. The good tankiness and AP as well as extra slows for E which you stated means ivern can keep you pinned for a while (with a good Q snare E for 70% slow lasting 3 seconds on top of the rylais slow) whilst survivng too. The tankiness is good for him to survive with its HP as well as the AP making daisy deal more damage and make her tanky since more ap = tanky daisy. The slow from rylais also procs on daisies autoes which helps her massively a lot since she does struggle to get a 3rd auto off at times without iverns Q and daisy being slow
But slows don't stack? Unless something changed in a patch I didn't read, the last one I read "the largest slow will apply" as opposed to 30% slow + 20% slow = 50% Ivern's E does not proc Crystal Sceptres slow, unless I am mistake?
: If you want an AP/HP item i'd go for {{item:3151}} . Max CDR on Ivern isn't hard to get, and with your Q, the slow on E and Daisy's knockup he isn't really in need for an extra slow imo.
That's what I thought, I just wanted to hear someone else's view on it
Rioter Comments
: Just tested it. Yes. The game treats Ivern's passive as killing the camp. Even though lore-wise, he's setting them free.
TY, i wasn't sure because I get healing from an item as well
Rioter Comments
Weelah (EUNE)
: I have a fundamental flaw in my supporting ....I have no fcking idea how ADC's works I have no idea which support is good with which ADC Which ADC counters which ADC and will I need to play passive/aggressive I have no idea of their power spikes...apperantly Vayne is rly bad pre lvl6 and becomes rly strong with Statik shiv..and Draven with a BF sword hurts....alot Now I know im a bad support but I have no freaking idea if my ADC is worse than me or a God and im just screwing up his lane
Good points, but ultimately it is often common sense. Advanced game knowledge comes with time, but key points help: If you want to play leona, try partner her with an adc with mobility (like trista or lucian) or one with good range (like Cait) so they can follow your engages, rather than you fight 1v2 for 5 seconds. Or better yet, if they are highly mobile, avoid imobile supports like taric, as they will flame u when they engage and u don't learn to fly and follow them. If you have a high damage low mobility adc, pick someone with good peel, thresh or braum. I think adc's split into poke, dps and sustain, though I usually think of mobility, utility or burst. If they have utility, you want a support that can probably boost damage (leona passive, jannah shield, or a carry support like vel or brand) If they have burst, you probably want CC to set up their combos If they have mobility, you want to be able to keep up, so you don't get separated, a support with good range (Vel), or mobility themselves. (Alista) How you play will often come down to the enemy as much if not more than your adc. If you follow this logic, then whether you go tank, utility or mage (ie, leona, bard, anni), should be based on what team needs (AD mid + tank/utility jungle, choose an ap support, assassin or mage top/jungle, choose a tank, a good balance of damage and def like Darius, Orianna and Xin, choose a utility champ, etc etc)
duckarp (EUNE)
: Sure, but that's still just people, not the pick. I don't see anyone complaining about shitty malphites, braums, nunus, lulus.. If someone struggles with the game, it doesn't really matter if he takes some other champ. Saying "don't pick mf as a support" is just a way of justifying own frustration and blaming something that has been present much longer than worlds.
it's true, it's the person, not the pick... entirely, but picks make a difference, sometimes, a certain pick just CAN'T do anything. Off meta picks work if you have the right composition or strategy, but other times you just string yourself up, hiding behind turret while the enemy free farms, waiting until you're level 6 while they are already level 7 and have a few kills because no matter how safe you play they get you and you can't stop them cause you picked something with no counterplay/outplay ability. Certain champs that are only damage, fail if they can't apply it, champs that are only utility fail if partnered with other utility champs so no one has damage. Mf support can work, but only if you have considered your team and their team compositions. A good player will still lose if they make a bad choice of picking.
PaladinNO (EUNE)
: http://66.media.tumblr.com/06ce4cc4763f0f4b1e72d42a56048744/tumblr_o23b241j1i1shiin5o1_1280.jpg Unless it actually works (i.e. the person actually contributes to the win), it is fully reportable. While not following the meta is allowed(!), deliberate trolling/intentional feeding/refusing to communicate (i.e. not warding as a support) isn't. I once read a comment here on the Boards which I think hits it spot-on: >As long as you get Sightstone, I don't care what you build after that.
This little comic made me laugh so hard "Death is the BEST CC" LOL
ChiTenshi (EUW)
: > As long as you get Sightstone, I don't care what you build after that. {{champion:77}}: {{item:3006}} {{item:2301}} {{item:3085}} {{item:3048}} {{item:3056}} {{item:3026}}
Well if he has that build, he is probably hella fed so something is going right lol
Doomley (EUW)
: I KNOW it. It's the same with leona passive. Leona does the damage but she still gives the kill to ally if they happen to die to your passive. You can tell it while you play ivern. Put the e on ally and watch the minions when the e pops. If you can see the exact amount of damage it did to enemies next to them, you did the damage.
Ok, you can see the damage (in case you didn't know and were asking) though something does seem off with Ivern, even without AP considering ok ratios, his numbers don't seem to add up. He is a support, not damage dealer, i don't expect a lot of damage, but in game he seems to be dealing more damage than his post stats suggest, at some point i'll run some custom games just to be certain but for now I'll take your word for it
Doomley (EUW)
: I wasn't talking about lulu q but her passive. If you shield ally and q, the kill goes to lulu.
Ok I get ya Forgot about her passive doing those bonus hits
Doomley (EUW)
: The damage is still iverns and not the targets even if it give the kill to ally.
This might come off as rude but I don't mean it to be, I honestly want to know, whether you KNOW this (tested it, read it somewhere), or whether you assume this based on game logic?
Doomley (EUW)
: There are other champions taht can give kills to allies. As an example, Lulu with pix and nami. The damage dealt is going for ivern but the kill goes to the person that has the shield. Just like every other ability that buffs the damage of allies.
I see your point, but I don't think it's the same. Maybe with Lulu, if she lands Q while an ally is shielded, the Q comes from Ally, I don't know who gets the kill as i have never tested it. But it's completely different from Nami. Nami augments the damage dealt by the ally, Ivern attacks using the allies body. If Cho gath stands perfectly still and does nothing, and You use trigger seed on him, the explosion will grant him the damage, killing minions to give him farm, or killing champions to give him kills. Literally, he doesn't need to do anything, but be close to enemy, whereas Nami's heal often steals kills, and her E requires the ally to LAND auto attacks. So far, lulu's Q interaction is the only other example I have heard of, but in all the time I've played lulu (one of my main supports when I am not playing a tank), I have stolen kills, but never seen myself "grant" a kill with that combo. That said, I often land both Q's or use it to slow more than damage, so it would be easy to miss or just not happen, would like to hear more on that too.
Eveninn (EUW)
: I would assume it's the same when Zilean places a bomb on an ally, the damage dealt (and kills if they happen) get contributed to Zilean, or in this case Ivern. Daisy surely is added to damage dealt, but I actually never thought of damage taken by pets/clones, I'd think it does not Show up in stats, as it isn't direct damage.
The damage from trigger seed contributes to the targets damage or kill. If I place it on Daisy, it's my kill, but if I place it on Garen, it will be Garen's kill even if Trigger Seed is what did the last hit damage, same applies to farming minions. Zileans is the opposite in this case.
Rioter Comments
: Due to a misunderstanding, you may have that perception. u didnt seem to get the point about {{item:2049}} vision control wins games and that wasn't even the topic in any of discussions, i discussed recently. The topic, I discussed was **item variation** but if you want Item variation, it wont come if the first set of items are always the same and expensive. there is no point of Deleting Locket or removing any item. **I disagree with mindset of the design team on how they want Supports to have different build paths** if supports have low Gold income and spend most of it on basically sightstone itself. there wont be really dynamic builds <-- i test alot of a support builds. Especially in this meta where early game has the most impact of the game. > it can help make a huge difference in terms of knowing when to roam, as well as preventing ganks. as mentioned, i am discussion build variation, but the changes being made are not really helping to create it Visions value is immense that is a totally different subject. Nobody is argueing to remove ''sightstone'' that is insanity and missing the point. > Taric or hybrid supports like anivia (yes she can support and quite well actually) can do so easily.\ Taric isnt as effective or quick. i build zzrot alot and its workable but nowhere near effective or ''their job'' As for Hybrids... its like picking a nidalee support, depending. they may work, but i am discussing about strictly the ''support'' based champions with the support kit. > I agree about ageis/locket, removing that would be dreadful, agreed.
Ok, I think I understand where you're coming from better now and I pretty much agree with you and respect your demeanour regarding online discussions. WP I suppose items that serve a similar purpose but fundamentally different to locket, sightstone and frozen heart (for tank supports but sometimes mages too), would help create more diversity, like variations on farsight or the ability to reveal large areas around the support (like over walls and through brush - upgraded versions of the red trinkets) at the cost of the traditional sightstone. For a while people were saying the sightstone should do more, CDR is one obvious bonus, increases range of placing wards so supports don't get caught as often while warding, right now the ruby sightstone has a nice bonus, but it's still rather small considering how late you'll build it, I often just buy pinks and keep my yellow trinket while focusing on core combat and life saving items before going sightstone (like finishing the support item or building locket) to survive ganks and fights, rather than a sightstone that may stop a gank but you'll be pressured more in lane anyway) Dunno what else they could do, but removing items is definitely not the right choice
KARAY (EUNE)
: Yea dude, everyone says that, but the reality is that he is a monster. He's like: "Oh you dont want to come to me? I'll come to you then". Full tank Darius tanking turret and killing his opponent has become the norm nowadays. And that is seriously wrong. Its not normal for a champ at lvl 4-5 to tank a turret and a an enemy champ and survive. Darius can do that. Darius is pretty much free elo. Sure you will stay away from him, but for how long? The most you can survive is until he hits 6, at that point you will die with or without tower.
Darius isn't easy, he has one of the strongest early games, and can be a monster in late games if he is full tank, as your whole team needs to peel to stop him from killing one of your champs, and the peelers are getting killed while doing it... However Many champs can get the advantage, I find that Naut can beat darius at level 1 and 2, and if plays smart for most of game, and can single handedly peel him late game, while using his ulti and other skills to aid teamfights, while darius is struggling to get passed you. Most ranged champs CAN beat Darius, but lose because they get cocky, enter his range and die, once he has kills on you, you've lost, but if you can stay away from him, you eventually outscale him to the point where you harrass him to death. I main taliyah and anivia, and I can kite darius indefinitely, the only times he gets me is if i mistep when trying to hit minion, he surprise me from brush, or he flash grab, but most of time I will stun->flash escape, or utilise the fact that One kill isn;t enough, and he can only do these kind of combos once before I work around them. The biggest problem in late games for my elo, is people still don't get focus. not "focus the adc" or "kill the fed champ" Adc should hit whoever they can safely, if soraka is in range, kill her, but don't chase her into darius? Adc should focus darius Tank should peel tank (if a Naut or maokai is jumping on the enemy adc, who is stopping Darius doing the same?) Mid laner should try and sneak around or get the squishy champs, or focus on hurting everyone with AOE Jungler should be doing the same as one other champ, while support hangs back and looks out for assassins and flash plays when 5 guys jump soraka, that is when Darius gets free stacks and kills everyone, he can't do it if he is alone and everyone full unless your team REALLY fked up
: > would be nicer to read if you use the quote function Just sayin but now i start reading and using quotes from you :D > Wrong, simply put.. support is the least carriable role and after playing in many roles, SUPPORT even according to professionals is the slowest to CLIMB WITH.. because even if you do make "plays'' you are stuck with the team to have to follow up and usually not as u wish. Well professionals can be wrong from time to time to I mean Dom(former TL jungler) says that Jungle is the hardest role to carry and to climb, while I will be saying as jungle you have it the easiest. But overall my opinion on that topic as not professional: it is the hardest to carry because you have like you already said, to rely on others the most but on the other hand you have to rely on other with any role. Play as ADC you have to rely on others to set you up/peel for you, play midlane you have to rely on others to get reactions from your roams, play toplane/jungler you have to rely on others going in with you. By the way 23 out of 200 challenger players are currently support mains. I agree that you have to rely more on others as Support then on other roles but if you can't rely on your adc try roaming if your midlaner is unreliable too it is probably gg anyways. You have much power and free time as support you don't have to concentrate on cs, you must place good wards and you should probably be the guy who pings on objectives and when to engage. I don't know how my winrate as supporter are but I can assure you that it is the same as if I play any other role, and i never felt as a support the way "man if I just were top i could've carried" because there is always something you can do better. > ALso supports cannot split push not even with {{item:3512}} this simply would be ineffective, but it can slow down a lane. >Supports are not good at taking down structures be it inhibs or towers. >Supports are not good at taking down drakes etc. >So they RELY on others in all forms in a League of legends toxic enviroment. So that's a long topic gee, they can't take down those things but they can help with that zz'rot portal is not there to be a splitpush machine, it is there to pressure a lane while not even being there. It is kinda like banner. Most tanks and midlaners aren't good at taking structures and drakes down either but you now what you can do with cc? You can zone, you can zone as a support while you are taking dragon, you don't have to be like a mindless fly smashing that drake down with your 80 ad, you can clear the wards that are on it prepare the drake by warding around it and if anyone comes close you "scare" them away with your cc. > So you can tell that whatever others experiencing in forms of frustration, the SUPPORT feels it even more as they are on the frontline of teamwork <-- they essentially need even their toxic teammates at times. >A fed Champion on different lanes can solo Carry. A support would be stuck with many values, Forexample if you fed your ADC, this does not mean that your ADC will win the game. he May misposition and die instantly or even go 1vs5 against your will. Well that is one point I have to agree on, it is frustrating for me to play support sometimes, but most of the frustration I get is from laning if I see that my adc misses the easiest cs. I play literally every role so it is pretty frustrating, as a guy that plays every role decently (except jungle thats what i suck hard), to see someone who MAINS that other role fck up so bad. But the kind of frustration you are talking about is on every role present in the same amount. I mean if you go in as ADC expecting your support to follow heal you use his exhaust and he doesn't do that you get frustrated too. Or like in an earlier example as an engage tank, lets say malphite hit a nice 4 man ulti and noone follows that is evenly frustrating as playing support and seeing this kind of stuff. That is the only downside of supporter that a fed supporter can't afford stuff to solo carry, but for that reason Annie Support Zyra Support is a thing. The 1v5 carry on other lanes does mostly work only because it is a win already anyways or the supporter don't use his exhaust. You can be fed as much as you want, a good timed exhaust can kill anyone, I had a round last week where someone was crying about that I always exhausted him, exhausts does wonders. > As result other Roles have more control over their own destiny, if they fail they fail.. but in support that is not always the case. you Could hook a ADC 10 times and exhaust etc. and your adc could just be standing there farming as you get murdered. Just stating this as a example. >but performance on SUPPORT relies on Performs of ADC or Performs of your jungler vs the other jungler or even THE mid roaming compared to your mid roaming. 4 man dives happen alot. Over control we already talked, also being a support has the nice benefit that no matter how far behind you are you will always be worth something for the team. That is why support champions are "support" champions because they will always offer some kind of cc and you can be ahead or far behind as you want the 2s aoe stun some guys offer will never be going away. Like I said if you can't rely on your adc try roaming warding the enemy jungle can work wonders too and if your adc flames you mute him and report him after the game, because a supporters job is not to stay with the adc for all eternity (except maybe kalista since her nerf), but is there to support the TEAM. On the other topic about performance, if you want to have good lane a fed adc it depends 80% on the support and 20% on the adc if he follow ups. Most people are smart enough to follow up cc, unless you are bronze, then you should just put out the good ol' annie/brand/velkoz support. > if u think that only ''selfishness'' makes support unlikable or items. than you are missing the bigger elephant in the room.. the fact that SUPPORT has the lowest income no matter the games outcome and has to buy {{item:2049}} <- this is the problem. 800 gold of waste. if supports could get vision easily they could have built differently. I never said that this is the sole reason but in my opinion selfishness is the biggest reason. Most people just want to be that "Big superstar" having the most damage as adc, obliterating the other squishies as assassin, or being unkillable as a tank. As a support you don't have that kind of "power" because you are just the backhand. You are like the sidecharacter that helps but you never see the hard action in him. I don't know if you watch anime but I would just compare it with that. Let's say dragon ball , the most people want to be goku vegeta freezer etc one of the badass people, but probably noone wants to be muten roshi that teached goku the kamehameha. You can have a pretty great and awesome impact on the game but you just never reach the satisfaction most people have when playing other roles because cc ≠ damage. There is no rule that you have to buy sightstone but yea you should most likely buy it, except you are maybe in bronze, because those guys won't probably use the vision you are giving anyways. The problem is that you not only have to buy sightstone but also an aegis item, and thats the reason aegis will probably be removed or get it's aura taken away/massively changed. You only have as a normal support 2-3 item slots. 2 if you build sightstone and want the benefits of the fully builded support item 3 slots if you happen to fuse your support item and sightstone. So yeah the role is what it supposed to be, a supporter, you can carry hard on it like on any other role and it is pretty fun for me to play. But like I said you are not the main character with it and that is my opinion why it is not seeing so much play. Hopefully this changes a bit after the aegis removal, but probably not. It will be like when they implemented support items, first 2 weeks pretty nice and after that noone plays again. Anyways thats my word essay about support and is my opinion, you can disagree if you want but I will probably stay to me opinion because 6-7years of playing this game made me like a senile old fck lol. {{sticker:slayer-jinx-wink}}
Can I just add, while unkillable tank, most damage and insta-burst is nice, my favourite sensation is MEGA-PEEL Having the enemy lb jump in and just pixie her, then your vi engages their backline and you ulti for the team knock up, you slow down that nasus then drop a shield on your mid laner who is burning from ignite, pop a locket before going in on nasus who stops focussing adc for a second to get a free kill on you, then you flash/hourglass, he swaps focus back to adc before you pixie him then slow him and infinitely peel until adc kills him. THAT feeling, is AWESOME Can say the same for taric, when you shield your front line, flash infront of you adc to block a blitz grab, walk to the side before using you stun to simulataneously stun the front line and back line (remember your engagers has you stun) focus the blitz to proc your cd's while healing your front line. Grab a frozen gauntlet for the constant slow, wait until last second to pop ur ulti, then use face of mountain to buy you that extra tic of time before it triggers, back off and let your adc clean up, all the while still healing, shielding and slowing with your item combinations. Lulu and Taric are two of my favourites because unlike blitz or alista, they can support an entire team simultaneously, they don't need to focus on peeling for just one champ, and if you have good spacial awareness and reflexes, they can immobilise half the enemy team even when they split up, and with ironlocket, mickaels and other support item combinations, the fun just goes on and on
: ""Meddler already mentioned that they will make changes there and are probably removing aegis which is understandable because as a support you have already atleast 2-3 slots taken by default,"" worst IDEA ever, and if he put it down in vote, i would vote against this idea anytime. AEGIS was among the only few things a support had and its being killed. ''Tbh it is mostly because of the mindset of the community that noone plays support. The most part is selfish and want to play by themself'' Wrong, simply put.. support is the least carriable role and after playing in many roles, SUPPORT even according to professionals is the slowest to CLIMB WITH.. because even if you do make "plays'' you are stuck with the team to have to follow up and usually not as u wish. ALso supports cannot split push not even with {{item:3512}} this simply would be ineffective, but it can slow down a lane. Supports are not good at taking down structures be it inhibs or towers. Supports are not good at taking down drakes etc. So they RELY on others in all forms in a League of legends toxic enviroment. So you can tell that whatever others experiencing in forms of frustration, the SUPPORT feels it even more as they are on the frontline of teamwork <-- they essentially need even their toxic teammates at times. A fed Champion on different lanes can solo Carry. A support would be stuck with many values, Forexample if you fed your ADC, this does not mean that your ADC will win the game. he May misposition and die instantly or even go 1vs5 against your will. As result other Roles have more control over their own destiny, if they fail they fail.. but in support that is not always the case. you Could hook a ADC 10 times and exhaust etc. and your adc could just be standing there farming as you get murdered. Just stating this as a example. but performance on SUPPORT relies on Performs of ADC or Performs of your jungler vs the other jungler or even THE mid roaming compared to your mid roaming. 4 man dives happen alot. if u think that only ''selfishness'' makes support unlikable or items. than you are missing the bigger elephant in the room.. the fact that SUPPORT has the lowest income no matter the games outcome and has to buy {{item:2049}} <- this is the problem. 800 gold of waste. if supports could get vision easily they could have built differently.
Couldn't finish after you said supports can't split push, actually, quite a few can. They typically shouldn't because they should be with team, but while nami and jannah can't split push, Taric or hybrid supports like anivia (yes she can support and quite well actually) can do so easily. As for playmakers, professionals who play support usually DO have the team do what they want, that's what makes a professional team, coordination. Being a professional solo player in a team game sounds like garbage to me, maybe they exist but that opinion is faulty by nature. Most higher level teams "follow the support" it's the low level players that think the support should follow them. I agree about ageis/locket, removing that would be dreadful, and when I have a carry-type support, if i am tanking top or jungle, i sometimes still buy it, teams that refuse to buy it often start getting outscaled and not realise why (same for frozen heart), "if u think that only ''selfishness'' makes support unlikable or items. than you are missing the bigger elephant in the room.. the fact that SUPPORT has the lowest income no matter the games outcome and has to buy <- this is the problem. 800 gold of waste." That is his point really, it's not a waste, it's essential to the game, and thinking it is a waste "is a selfish way of thinking" I sometimes buy sightstone even if I am mid or top or jungle, if i am ahead or having an easy time but my team is struggling in other areas, it can help make a huge difference in terms of knowing when to roam, as well as preventing ganks. Pretty much everything I read about your view on support, supports what the earlier post is saying, people are too selfish to like that lane, and your reasoning is mostly selfish, I don't mean that to sound offensive, but that line of thinking is the point. People that want to "solo carry" should stop playing team games, when you rely on a solo carry you often lose, because the enemy team have only one person they need to kill. When i play support i often get focussed, I play Taric ffs, but because my peel game is so strong, my ulti is such a threat, and I position myself in such a way, the team has little choice but to try and kill me before I drop my skills, when your team has multiple "threats" you are stronger overall, but if you just want to solo carry, play COD
: {{champion:69}} in a decent spot atm... take advantage of her lack of burst and mobility to kill her. {{champion:120}} isn't too strong... {{champion:76}} maybe on the strong side but not in immediate need of nerfs. {{champion:421}} has been nerfed enough atm... honestly she has been nerfed so much that she struggles in solo Q yet is still really good in pro play so prob needs a small scale update to get her where she needs to be {{champion:154}} I think we are gonna have to see on this one... he is gaining popularity but with worlds starting that has a habit of debunking things like this so he might decline pretty quickly. {{champion:104}} had nerfs on the pbe but they have all be reverted... but means they are looking into it. {{champion:240}} still too early... we still haven't seen the full extent of kled yet and likely won't for a while. {{champion:7}} getting reworked in the preseason {{champion:112}} honestly he is in a petty good spot atm.
> [{quoted}](name=swampert919,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=dg241xUr,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-09-29T23:16:22.809+0000) > > {{champion:69}} in a decent spot atm... take advantage of her lack of burst and mobility to kill her. > I still think her kit is a bit toxic ( :P ) but counterplay is in abundance > {{champion:120}} isn&#x27;t too strong... > This is the only one I disagree with, while he isn't strong enough in the top lane, he is still a very strong jungle, with tankiness, escapes and damage, he often charges into games, one shots the adc and runs away before returning to front line for the rest of the 4v5 fight. This is not always the case however, so he sometimes does not come off as strong, but I think he needs to be looked at a bit > {{champion:76}} maybe on the strong side but not in immediate need of nerfs. > More annoying than strong, her ability to escape almost any situation, plus heals and insane poke make her very tedious to play against. Typically you wait for her to misstep and delete her, otherwise you will never touch her lol. And on top of all that, the one champion on your team that could keep up or get behind her just got one shooted lol. > {{champion:421}} has been nerfed enough atm... honestly she has been nerfed so much that she struggles in solo Q yet is still really good in pro play so prob needs a small scale update to get her where she needs to be > Agreed > {{champion:154}} I think we are gonna have to see on this one... he is gaining popularity but with worlds starting that has a habit of debunking things like this so he might decline pretty quickly. > He is massively strong, but still not sure if OP, can't imagine how he would be nerfed > {{champion:104}} had nerfs on the pbe but they have all be reverted... but means they are looking into it. > > {{champion:240}} still too early... we still haven&#x27;t seen the full extent of kled yet and likely won&#x27;t for a while. > WIth new champs it tends to be too early to buff than nerf (Taliyah and Bard both were stronger than people realised) However, sometimes it's people not figuring out counterplay, though Kled does seem a bit too strong for those that have figured him out > {{champion:7}} getting reworked in the preseason > > {{champion:112}} honestly he is in a petty good spot atm. - Agreed Nice analysis mate!
: Well there is a way. Which is what I described above. Simple timer. It checks to see if a player's level is the same after a certain time limit. Regardless if someone is afk or troll griefing by moving around in the fountain but not farming or particpating at all. Their level will not increase it will stay at the level that they left it at. So if a player is afk or griefing and they're level 2. If after 3-5 minute timer it checks and that player is still level 2. Then the game will offer message saying "player is not particpating in the game for 3-5 minutes. It still early game would you like to /remake?"
It doesn't work because it would be abused by people losing and then quitting, to help others not lose lp, or flamers would go crazy when a lane is losing asking them to leave so they lose lp and no one else, increasing hostility and increasing odds of losing game. ALso, if people WANT to troll you, they will always have a work around, from walking to different points, intentional feeding, or just standing under turrets, but not doing anything. The computer can't assess every scenario. Also, many people surrender at first possible chance, personally, I want to have surr@20 removed but I know it won't be. Every time someone dies, dc's or is out-farmed someone says surr@20 i've been winning games, team has objectives, kills, control of map, and people still want to surr because someone ks'd or because they have bad kda regardless of team situation. So this feature you're suggesting would mean people type remake every time someone dc's (which most of the times the do come back and play normally), any time someone is behind, so their levels are low and doesn't go up, and the more checks you place to take into account these scenarios, more stress it puts on the engine, unnecessarily slowing the game down. Checking every champ every second (because it would have to reset the timer if they move) then resetting the timer then starting again, just a waste. The only thing I could suggest is taking into account afk's and reducing the loss to players who lose those games (lose half lp or something) because many afk games can be won, and I've seen it time and time again. And many DC champs come back, so harsher punishments for trolls is the only viable solution, or we are just promoting an even MORE negative community
: what is yasuo and teemo's weakness?? and should they get nerfed?
Oh right! I think a really good champ to use against either is {{champion:111}} Use pure tank runes, his passive can stop yas dashing about, he can poke through minions using E, he can even stop yasuo activiting his ultimate. His shield can outlast teemo's poison, so you will significantly outtrade him, as long as you waveclear first, which is easy with his E and W procs. Against Teemo, I start W (shield), I use it to farm, if he attacks me, he will take damage from minions while my shield takes all his damage, I back off just before it wears off, perfect trade. Level 2 I can go q (hook) and probably kill him, if he plays safe, I go E to clear wave faster, push it to his tower because he cant farm well under tower, head back to ward, and prepare to kill him at level 3. Against yasuo, I go W first, then E. If he goes really agro, I can go Q first, not to grab him, but to grab terrain and escape, using same tactic, to tank with W, and fall back when it is about to wear off. I can trade in minions quite easily too. With E, you can easily proc his shield, before waiting to engage, as full tank, you will outdamage him in direct trade, and with good wave control, he can't even try to outplay you, just don't get carried away and let the jungler catch you off guard Pro tip, you get ganked and are low, don't use shield if you can help it, flash if you must, but use Q to get back to tower, if they dive, then you can use W to tank, auto attack and walk away. They will be rooted under tower, if they keep fighting, stay close and try to get them both, if they try to run, the shorter cooldown on Q means you might be able to pull them back into tower, I got double kill twice using this tactic with about 50 hp against a Yi and Darius, because they got tunnel vision looking at my hp and not my CD's works even better against squishy champs like yasuo, especially if he has wasted wind wall or is trying to outrun turret so doesn't stop to cast it.
: > [{quoted}](name=Apollocliptic,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=b3IZrtNj,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-09-29T20:18:05.890+0000) > > **I think if you were more specific as to what champions you are using, people can help more** melee based champions in top lane, trundle for example and other top laners that rely on melee > but the main weakness of yasuo is wave control. If you accept that you can&#x27;t get all farm, and focus on controlling the wave, his options quickly become limited. i am willing to accept that i cannot have all minions, however i don't understand what you said on controlling the wave. He seems to have far more control over the minions than me, if i try to auto attack a minion i'm looking at losing 50%-75% health. > Only fight him after your minions are dead (opposite to normal engage rules), try to use poke abilities to proc his shield while u have minions, and time it so you can fight once they are gone (nasus for example has his aoe move). good idea, i forgot about the shield thing. when my minions are dead and i fight him then his minions will attack me, but is this technique you speak of to avoid his dashing thing? i'm taking your advice into heavy consideration, so far so good. :) Thanks for the advice,
Yeah, attacking when he has minions and you don't is really risky, at least early game, but fighting in your wave of minions is actually worse. Wave control can refer to a few things, but ultimately it's about timing and focus. Most yasuo will push, to proc their Q and uses dashes they damage minions faster and so even if he levels up first, the minions will be closer to your tower. By not trying to farm early for example, your minions will die quicker, then you can farm once they are close to your tower. purposely leaving some minions alive so the lane freezes in an idea spot, means yasuo has to be careful not to accidentally dive, and if he is taking his time to freeze the lane, take your time to land the safe minions, he won't snowball if he can't get the kills and isn't rushing farm. Trundle is hard because he has no hard push abilities, letting yasuo push is best because you can farm under tower quite easily, but if he DOES freeze, you can't hard push to counter. I would suggest this dangerous tactic, go ham. Wait until you have no incoming minions. RUsh in and take as much farm as you can as quickly as you can while yasuo tries to fight you, if he doesn't then farm normally, if he does, dont fight back, watch your health and take what you can, then use your speed and cc to escape, he can't chase you using minions if there are none incoming. You take a lot of damage, go back to base. He will either have to push, in which you tp back to lane, or he doesn't and you run back and repeat. You won't outfarm him, but you'll maintain decent levels then it comes to build. some people would suggest risking an early thorn mail, since it will hurt his early game a lot, however, it'll make you weaker mid game when thorn falls off, as it is typically a late game item. Itemezing helps, sunfire will help you farm and deal damage to him without fighting, randuin will reduce his damage a lot, and if he can't kill you, then you will outscale him by building damage later. Rushing items like trinity means you have to trade early and win, but rushing items like sunfire and randuin means you take your time and he won't be diving you or bursting you unless he roams and gets fed somewhere else. So rush sunfire (the fire first, then the armor) and stop using the rush and grab tactic, now take ur time to safely farm. Once you finish your sunfire, probably go randuin (of course you want boots too), at this point you can farm safely, and ignore him if he try fight you, just last hit and avoid fighting, he won't be able to kill or dive, and once you start building damage you should outscale him nicely, this is of course assuming no jungler ganks from either side.
: Anivia was consistently buffed for a while for ages though, she's still in a really good spot. I think buffs would push her over the edge again.
I mostly agree, buffs would push her over the edge, and she did get some buffs, but those buffs were partnered with nerfs (increase dps, lower range on ulti, decrease mana cost, increased again, increased range at one point, must channel for longer for maximum size, plus she lost the AS reduction, not a big change in terms of laning, but big in terms of teamfights) so she did get some buffs, but still mostly or even with nerfs, regardless I agree that she is in a good spot, in soloQ she can be tricky, but in team or competitive she is really strong, so any buffs would make her OP and I don't want that or I would just play Annie :D ^^
: what is yasuo and teemo's weakness?? and should they get nerfed?
I think if you were more specific as to what champions you are using, people can help more, but the main weakness of yasuo is wave control. If you accept that you can't get all farm, and focus on controlling the wave, his options quickly become limited. Only fight him after your minions are dead (opposite to normal engage rules), try to use poke abilities to proc his shield while u have minions, and time it so you can fight once they are gone (nasus for example has his aoe move). Yasuo is typically squishy, though his bruiser build is a bit OP at the moment, but you can get an early advantage because he won't be able to build it quickly (the bruiser items are expensive), so baiting his shield, controlling the wave and then just killing up in straight fight. If he doesn't fight you (because most will retreat if there are no minions) don't worry, focus on farm. Top lane is a farm lane, not a kill lane, focus on not giving him kills and itemise for the teamfights. Get well placed tp's to gank other lanes and get ahead of him. there's more than one way to win a lane
ChiTenshi (EUW)
: Anivia's Wall deals 1 point of true damage if it hits an enemy when spawning, that's why the turret targets you. Maybe this could be changed.
LOL OMG how did I not know this (or forgot) I've never gotten an assist with it though, but probably because the times I do I also land other abilities. That 1 point is so pointless though lol Well thanks for clearing that up, it means the interaction is by design, though sometimes I draw aggro even if it's not a direct hit, but this makes more sense now, thanks
: Anivia needs no buffs.
Well it's not really intended as a buff, and more as a consistency in gameplay and interaction. Besides, as they have been consistently nerfing her for a while in preparation for a small "support" style buff, so this could be a small tweak just plumped on top
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ShadWooo (EUNE)
: Allright. I admit I haven't played that matchup on my own and I was only guessing based on yasuo-talliyah interactions and champion.gg statistics where Yasuo have sligthly higher winrate in this matchup than Talliyah. But so did you not played Teemo, if you did you would know that {{item:3364}} not only reveals him shrooms but also prevent you to proc them. So, when the time comes and you finally build your Phantom Dancer, you just use {{item:3364}} and it gives you complete immunity to preplaced shrooms. Teemo then needs to flash to escape Yasuo and even flash might not help if its toplane or his tower is gone ie. in longer lane. Teemo doesn't have damage. He can actually burst you down but for that he needs to ignite you, land blind, proc thunderlord and use corrupting potion and then chase you down with additional autoattacks while you trying to run. Which isn't going to work against champions who doesn't need to run because the moment you appear from passive and use Q they will use windwall or parry and nullify all that damage in first place and then they chase you down because unlimited no cd mobility.
Ok, didn't know that, thanks, gonna remember for next time. Yeah, I can imagine if both players are equally skilled, yasuo should win. I concede to your logic dear sir!
: Can someone explain to me the matchmaking system...
I want to thank everyone for the responses, gonna try some new tactics to help rise a bit faster, might have to start leaving lobbies (those LB support games where you know it's lost from the start), but anyway, thanks ^^
ShadWooo (EUNE)
: Wtf. What a nonsense ppls claim here. Maybe you can beat bronze Yasuo with Teemo or Tallyiah but that doesn't mean its a good pick/counter or there is some counterplay where you buy single item or you play in certain way and Yasuo lane is suddenly no problem. Thats utter bs. There is no item you could build on a midlaner which will save you against Yasuo. If you are ad and you go vs AP such item exists its {{item:3155}} ->{{item:3156}} , in few matchups AP champion can build {{item:3191}} -> {{item:3157}} its very effective against Zed but not against Yasuo. It will not make you tanky at all. Active is only useable if he tower dives you, which non-bronze Yasuo won't do perhaps unless you are low enough for 100% kill with the EQaa combo. And the counterplay really isn't there either. All these generic advices autoattack him to remove shield etc. renders useless against high skilled Yasuo. Will start with Teemo. So basically Teemo has a small chance early game where Yasuo is not broken yet and where his autoattacks doesn't deal 50% of his hitpoints. Its really not that hard to survive that lane, but you are not going to kill Yasuo unless he is super cocky or super stupid and try to all in on his weakest point in game. But then, even 0/3 Yasuo will instawin against 3/0 Teemo the moment he finishes {{item:3046}} . Whole Yasuo kit counters Teemo, hell his windwall blocks even Teemo shrooms. Plus Teemo is countered by {{item:3364}} . Now Talliyah. Not only he can block that with windwall but he also can just dash through minion to dodge it (the additional hits at least), his windwall also counters her R. It doesn't counter W and E but again when W is used he can use minion to dash and dodge it. Even if he doesn't dodge it Talliyah doesn't really have high kill pressure, basically none if Yasuo rush {{item:3155}} (but then why when he can dodge everything so easily). If you go against good Yasuo you need teamwork. Thats right. Lot of jungle pressure and cc him in teamfight. Your best bet is not to feed him, give up perhaps some cs if it helps you alive and ping when he is missing. And pray it will be enough. In my case it mostly wasn't so he is a must-ban for me since his playrate increased so much that he is picked in every second ranked and absolutely every normal game.
I'm sorry to say this but you are over hyping yasuo a bit. Regarding teemo i don't know, but regarding taliyah, procting yasuo shield is easy as hell, and even if his wall counters her ulti that is redundant, cause it's not part of her play against him. Taliyah is not an insta killer like Syndra, but that's what makes her strong against yasuo. Her E neutralises his dash, meaning when u said, "if she use W he will dash" that will cause him to take huge damage. Her cooldown on Q is MUCH lower than his windwill, she can harrass him for days. I have seen some really good yasuo players, who can basically 1v5 (when I was higher gold and playing with premades, a few plat yasuo players were turning up). But he still has to catch taliyah off guard from brush, he can't just walk towards her and kill her because he loses trade quite badly at all stages of game (assuming they are equal fed). Her E is toxic to him at all stages of the game, to the point where she can face him easier 1v1 than in a team sometimes, because other champs give him more options for ulti, lifesteal and dashes, but a well placed E when he engages, masacres his hp, if he uses windwall, then he must now retreat while you free farm, because a second Q E combo would kill him. As long as YOU as Taliyah don't get cocky and try to fight him at melee range, or assuming he doesn't flash onto you (which can still fail but is hard to stop), his only really way to fight back is ambush or have ally engage. The same is for Riven, if a riven is skilled, she will get into melee range of taliyah and wreck her, but if they are even, taliyah won't ever be that close, and can force riven from farm in the early game, and keep her away from allies in the late game (without farm or kills, riven won't be one shooting anyone, every dash will cause he to take damage from taliyah E, and her W will knock her away from people she is trying to combo) Essentially you can starve her out. Yasuo is harder because he is faster, but same rules apply. In team fights he takes so much punishment getting into range, than if Taliyah doesn't land the kill, an ally can, because, like many are saying, Yasuo is squishy once his shield pops, and Taliyah eats his shield, maw of malmortis and most of his hp with a single E, forcing him to play it safe and not hyper carry like normal. As for items, you build hourglass relatively late against yasuo if you're taliyah, and only because u might get ambushed or caught by suprise. Typically you go for upfront damage, so he just gets shredded every time he tries to get close, and he should never really lay a finger on you all game, 1v1 or team fights, unless, as said, it's an ambush or they have a Malphite. Even then, I usually hang back, wait for him to ulti my team, then lay down the damage so the second he lands after his ulti he is stuck. If he moves he dies, and he won't kill them with ulti alone, so he either gets killed by them, or tries to dash and get killed by me. Taliyah can outplay Yasuo in so many ways, and that is just one champ, there are many others than have their own tactics, I bet even as a teemo, if you starve Yasuo early game, he won't be able to just build damage against you, cause teemo will kill him before the blind wears off, and won't be near him if windwall is up, not to mention, his windwall blocks shrooms being thrown, he is still hurt if he walks on them, and a red trinket isn't going to counter teemo, just be a nuisance , considering it's cooldown and it only prevents ambushes not in fight damage
drymonkey (EUW)
: im looking for his weakness can you help
Taliyah wins 1v1, place E and he can't really move, kite and kill him over time, Use Q while on ur worked ground to pop his shield, and use it elsewhere when it is down, his windwall has lower cool down, you can hard push the wave so he can't farm, and use E on ur minions under tower. It makes W easy to land, and makes it so his farming under tower is really bad too. Maokai and Taric are both really effective against him, maokai can chain lock on his own, and if equally built, he will usually outtrade, but if yasuo is fed/ahead, not gonna work. Taric can out dmg/sustain yasuo even with support items, but obviously yasuo will just run away once he realise u outheal his dmg,but it'll help detract him while ur team either focus yas or someone else. Other champs have ways to beat him too, but those champs i consistently beat Yasuo with ALso, play safe with anivia and just R
: > My theory, is that because I WAS higher gold, I was getting more low gold and silver on my team, to balance it out, failed to carry (yes I can admit my failings) and ultimately lost ranks, but because I was in higher gold, I am still getting more S1 players on my team, while the enemy is between g2 and some low plats. Only your current MMR will be taken into account for Matchmaking, if you lost several games in a row, you MMR can drop several divisions, which will make you queue up with lower ranked players. If you got an player with a lower division playing against higher ranked players, this means that this player got an high MMR, which means he is a good player. > does the match making take into account previous ranks or only current rank (and to be honest, I wanted to vent a little) only at the beginning of an season, your old rank will be taken into consideration and only a small faction of it. Like i said, your HIDDEN rank determines who you get matched with and against, because those player will be around your hidden MMR, too.
Thank you, that's actually really helpful. I think i will need to have to play ranked with premades only until my MMR is back up, it sounds like cause I lost a lot of games, I am getting others in the same situation. It's kinda like kicking someone when they're down when you think about it :/ In theory the enemy should be in the same situation, but that just hasn't been the case... Anyway, my luck will turn around eventually, thanks again
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Apollocliptic

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