: this is a great idea, its a shame that this idea has been on the boards about 1000000 times but riot is too busy making more "progress" by releasing more hextechchromapacks worth 10000 RP so they can... uhh... "improve the game"
Hehe, thanks for supporting Redorchestra16
: > In closing I would suggest you and others whoare interested to open a new thread called "How to create the perfect performance indicator", it could be another very interesting discussion. there is no possible way to do it. so why make a thread about it? also there is no way to make a perfect ranking system. riot has one of the best out there. blizzard on the other hand has one of the worst(both in world of warcraft and ovewatch, those are humiliating tbh) the system works fine. and as people say, dont fix anything that isnt broken =). you dont "deserve" to lose less LP just because you did good in a game/others doing bad. it is a teamgame, not a single player game, you win as a team or lose as a team, noone have a privilage here. you go down with the ship. and dont say"but dynamicq is for solo skill, not it isnt. solo/duoq was for solo skill. this dynamic queue messures your skill in cooperating as a team, which is the core of league of legends as it is after all a teamgame..
It's not about fixing, it's about improving, it's quite different. The wheel worked perfectly thousands of years b.C. so it's been a total mistake to evolve from ancient wagons to modern cars? I've been playing in a team sport since when I was a kid and I keep on playing and I completely agree with you there, about the team spirit and winning and losing together. The big difference here is that in dynamic queue you have different teammates every single game, assigned to you randomly (if not premade), so the concept of teamwork is much weakened. Besides how is playing solo or duo in dynamic queue different than the old solo/duo queue? The system tries anyway to match you with similar (in number) premade parties. Another big difference, in any team game, the rank is for the entire team, while here on LoL you have different single players getting randomly matched into teams and the rank is for the singular players. Ranked teams are for real teamwork games and it would be wrong and also impossible to apply my suggestion to them, because the rank is for the entire team. If I'm a single player ranking in a randomly matched team game instead, then I'd find it fair to put some of my individual contribution into my ranking. Now I'd like you to notice how the goal of the modified system I propose is the exact same of the actual system, which is bringing the player to its deserved rank. It just goes there faster and more accurately, hopefully lowering the variance and (I know you don't agree here) hopefully reducing toxicity. You said "you dont "deserve" to lose less LP just because you did good in a game/others doing bad". If your opinion is that it is wrong to include personal performance into a binary win/lose point system, then I respect your opinion and I thank you for contributing to the discussion.
: we seem to agree to disagree.. as if i where a support with this system in place i would not flash infront of my adc if he needed me to block smth (if i would die in that case) as that would lower my score and give me less LP if we won but in fact i contributed more because i actually saved the adc.. the system cant check that i actually died to save someone. and until you can this system wont work. the point nr 4 is that if i where 4-0 why would i risk losing more LP than just lose a little LP? if i am 4-0 but the total score is 4-15 there is litterly no chance of us winning(as if the enemies are atleast decent we wont be able to comeback, in my elo atleast) meaning i would do the smart thing and just wait out and farm to lose less LP than dying over and over for trying to defend when they can just tower dive. in the current system when a game is completly lost, you can still run around and goof around, as you know you wont win.. meaning you can try stupid shit and go for crazy plays that only works 1-1000 times. i would like to add that the grade system is also pretty awful, and until that can get fixed this would never work. as i could go trynd support and get an S+ by going 4-3 as that is above average as trynd support(in the systems mind) you dont think people will work against eachother? lets say you are fed, and your toplaner does a stupid engade would you join in to a certain death? or would you save your grade and lose less LP than going in? this is the problem. people wont follow up as much as they do know as score matters way to much.. look at lcs matches. just because the toplaner went 0-3-10 dosnt mean he did bad. but in the grade system he did horrible. the system cant see the match but just the statistics(you died here from this, dragon got taken at this point) the system wont know if he died 3 times for the team to get a full ace. would you still call that bad play? would you call a support flashing infront of a cait ult that would kill the adc but kill him instead in that case? in the systems mind it will. therefor people will work against eachother as they wont wanna help their teammates in those situation. as that would award them less LP when they win, when they could have just walked off, win and gain more LP(same applies if they would lose, instead of saving the adc he would lose less LP than if he would save him)
Excuse me, but I think that you are not reading my posts very carefully, or maybe you're not understanding them (might be my fault), because I find myself repeating things. You're again talking about the performance indicator, which is not the focus of this thread. Anyway, support sacrificing for the adc: what happened before? What will happen next? If both support and adc find themselves so low as to die from a Cait's ulti it means something has gone bad before. Will saving the adc mean he will then keep fighting and score an ace? How is this not rewarding for the support? Getting assists and a big step towards victory. Has it just gone bad and you basically have to choose who dies there with the other running to safety? So in this case if the support dies the adc doesn't have to wait for respawn and can keep on farming and do other things and this is quite good. You can see that this is a very particular, rare, outlier case, which to my eyes is neglectable compared to the benefits the modified system could provide. The concept you have to keep in mind is that you still have to choose what's best to win the game, not what's best for your score (you can read point 3 of my previous reply). I'm not here presenting you the perfect solution to any ranking system, I'm just proposing an improvement and I'd like you to keep in mind the system you're playing on at the moment as comparison; I wouldn't have felt the need to propose anything if the actual system were flawless. The 4-15 scenario: "i would do the smart thing and just wait out and farm to lose less LP than dying over and over for trying to defend when they can just tower dive". I hope you realize that's not doing the smart thing for the sake of LP, that's doing the right choice in such a situation. If the game is desperate, how is dying to them, trying stupidly to defend an undefendable tower, a good choice? Wouldn't help better towards victory to turtle, pull the game late and induce mistakes in the opponents? One is called losing gracefully, the other is called feeding stupidly. You can try stupid, crazy plays that work only 1/1000 times in normal games, or do that in ranked but take responsibility. It's again the same concept, what is better for your team and to get an advantage towards victory? The grade system is not really awful, but it might be flawed of course, given the complexity of the game. Anyway, would you play Tryndamere as support in a ranked game? Is that a good choice towards victory? (Honestly these last parts of your reply were so poor, it makes me think you're out of arguments). Again, no no no, people wouldn't work against eachother because it would mean working against victory. Is following that bad engage a bad shot? Don't go then, it's not about not going because so you lose less LP, it's about not going because it's a bad call and won't do good for you and for the team. It's not a hard concept to grasp. People won't follow? So they will stand back and watch the game ending with a loss so they can lose less LP? Is losing less LP better than winning less LP? How is 0/3/10 getting a horrible score? It's a 3.33... KDA, it's really nice. I think you didn't grasp very well the dynamics involved. In closing I would suggest you and others whoare interested to open a new thread called "How to create the perfect performance indicator", it could be another very interesting discussion.
: you dont see how flawed this system would be? and how wrong his arguments are? lets start here then i guess. 1. normally you dont gain 20LP and lose 20 LP often it is shifted in either side or lower(i myself get 17 LP and lose 14) some get 25 and lose 12 this is caused by the mmr.. the MMR sees if you are above what you should be and that hinders you from climbing further(unless you improve/improve your mmr) 2. so only because i had a good score i should lose less LP? lets say i am the only one dying in teamfights for a clear ace? that would put tanks in a huge disadvantage as they are meant to soak dmg/die. they dont get alot of kills? so just because i wanna be useful to the team means i will gain less LP but lose more LP? supports dont either get alot of kills. an alistar that throws himself into the enemy team to knock up for people but dies shortly after but you manage to get all those people. should he get less LP than you do because you played a carry and got the kills? 3. that would litterly only increase the toxicity of the game.people wouldnt wanna be top laners or supports(unless brand is meta) because they are the ones that are supposed to die in fights. that would create even longer queue times as noone would want support or top. supports wouldnt sacrifice themself for the adc as if they did they would lose more LP for doing it. 4. this would also be abusable. lets say you win lane really damn hard. come out 4-0 of the laning phase, but all other lanes are fed(on the enemy) the smartest thing for me to do at that case is afk farm. just play so passive there is no chance of me dying. as there is no possible way for me to win againt 4 other fed people. so instead of losing alot of LP for trying to carry i would sit and farm and only lose a bit of LP. should it work that way? no ofc not.. 5. there is a reason this isnt in the game, RIOT is after all the company with the biggest game in the world and they know how to run it. otherwise it wouldnt be the biggest game in the world. i am 100% sure this has run through their mind but from a developing standpoint it probablly dosnt work out.. after all, this is a team game. and the team should work together. not against eachother. this system will make people work against eachother. and if the ship sinks, the whole crew will go with them to the bottom of the ocean.
Please allow me to answer to the problems you pointed out: 1. True, LP gained/lost are based on the MMR the way you said. I fail to see why you brought this up, because it's clearly not correlated to the topic. What I'm suggesting here is to add some individual value to the LP we gain/lose with the actual system. 2. I answered to this in the 2nd item of my list, in my original post. Anyway, of course we wouldn't want an unfair situation and this concerns the realization of the performance indicator; I clearly said to consider it to be ideal for the sake of the discussion. (As a side note, I main support and I score many high grades; not even talking about Riot who stated they will improve the grades for supports) 3. Very related to point 2. Again, if a player doing his job very well and providing his team with an advantage towards victory receives a bad score, then there is something wrong with the performance indicator and here we're not talking about that, of course, the indicator must be fair and balanced. 4. I can't see the abuse. First of all, the scaling on the LP should be carefully engineered and would be just a small trimming around the actual values. Second, you talk about losing a lot of LP trying to carry. If your "trying to carry" means that you end up taking too many risks, making mistakes and adding some deaths to the count, then you deserve a worse score, why wouldn't you? If you decide to lose gracefully you'll lose LP anyway. With the actual system you can consider the game lost and go making bad plays without regrets, with the modified system you would want to take the best choices till the end, win or lose. 5. What Bommerhondjes14 said. And here I thank him for his comment. I also can't see how this system would make people work against each other, since that would earn them a bad score, again providing an ideal performance indicator. Thanks for the comment, any feedback is sincerely appreciated.
Boop chan (EUW)
: Well, I think it should bs performance based anyway. Maybe you get I don't know, +15 standard on a win and get more based on performance. But when you lose (which happens to be every game despite performing well) you should general lose some but if you did well maybe get +5 or another Low amount. I often perform well but my team feeds their opposite Laners and we lose because of it and I lose a good 20LP despite not being able to do anything about it even whilst doing well. It's wrong to punish people who performed well because they're team sucked. I win 1 every 4 games because of this and got demoted all way down to bronze. Personally I think the system is stupid and should be based off personal team play such as objectives, towers and k/a
Thanks for the comment. That's exactly what I propose, a system that considers also individual performance, as for right now your contribution to the game is not properly reflected into the LP you gain/lose.
Rioter Comments
Encrux (EUW)
: Champions & Gameplay is a pretty good place for stuff like this even though I **personally** think it may fit a little bit better into the "Creations & Concepts"-board. However, if your suggestions gets popular, it will be read either way. So you can leave it there ^_^ What you also could try out is making a post on the corresponding NA-boards.
Thanks for the reply. I think I posted on Creations & Concepts as well... I think. Maybe it's been considered wrong because my thread disappeared right after I posted it, in a matter of a few minutes. No idea what happened there, I'll try again maybe. I have my doubts my suggestion can become popular in a board where the guy crying capslocked about how it's all his teammates' fault if he keeps on losing games gets many more views and comments, like many other frivolous posts. Posting on the NA forums seems a nice idea, I didn't think about it, I'll try it. Thanks again! Edit. Apparently I have posted in the NA Creations & Concepts before, thinking it was EUW, that's why it was "disappeared" on EUW, my bad haha.
Rioter Comments
Tarolock (EUW)
: on the split pushing, with trynda you can get good grades because he is often played as a split pusher, but what if i say that my team not doing great and they can only defend but not push, so i go and split push with a support karma, then even if i destroy 5 towers+inhibitor i cant get good grades because im still compared to support karmas and i dont think that a lot of them goes split pushing and btw the nautilus example was one of my matches i grabbed a blitzcrank, got 3 ult in my face (velkoz blitz jhin) so i had to retreat and got an assist for blitz but nothing more
I'm sorry to stress this, but you're addressing again issues regarding the performance indicator, which is not the core of my suggestion and I've told this more than once by now. I have no idea if you could get a good grade in your Karma scenario with the actual mastery grading, but this belongs to another discussion, which would be "how to create a fair and balanced performance indicator". In fact you replied, but without answering the question I left for you at the end of my reply. It feels like you're not reading well my messages. Anyway, I appreciate that you can keep on putting your mind onto this. The concept that I'm trying to communicate is that, at the moment, your individual performance doesn't affect at all the amount of LP you gain/lose, so I suggested to include some individual in game behaviour into that.
Tarolock (EUW)
: ok, since you didnt see me as a rude guy now i actually read your wall of text, but my point still stands, imo it wouldnt be good on the long run, look at it this way: lets say i play a tanky champ like nautilus, i hook one of the enemy starting a fight, the enemy team blows all their spells on me and i barely get away with 10 hp so i go back to base, my team gets an ace for that, but since i wasnt there i would only get 1 assist for the guy i hooked, at the end we won, i did a great job but since my kill participation is not that good my grade will be lower so i would get less points, and that is not fair imo as for afks/trolls you are starting on negative lp, if you manage to win in a 90 min fight your score prolly be bad since you are 4v5 so enemy team have a better chance of killing all of you, so at the end you manage to win, but you get less lp since your grades are not that good, thats not fair either and dont forget the split pushing tactic, 1 guy just doesnt go for kills but destroys every turret/inhibitor on a lane and wins you the game, he did a great job but his score wont be that good the lp gain for ranked would work only in a arena style gamemode where you have nothing but enemy champions to kill so everyone can be measured the same way, but on the summoners rift there are too much thing that could influence the grading and the chance to win that the system could not work
I'm happy that you asked some questions and presented some examples, because I'm very confident about my suggestion and so I can show you that many fears about it are actually non existent. First of all I'd like everyone to get on a relative point of view, which is _this modified system vs the actual system we're playing on now_; this means, don't judge my suggestion like it wants to be the perfect solution to every problem, but just as an improvement, of course some problems will remain. So allow me to address your issues one by one. * The Nautilus scenario isn't likely to happen ever, there is a fairly long amount of time that can pass for you to earn an assist. If that time has passed (for Riot :P) it means you haven't had a part on the kill. If you mean that you only touched one champ with your hook and then had to retreat, well, you already earn less gold because of the less assists, is that fair? That doesn't concern my suggestion, but if you want that can be related to having a good performance indicator that could possibly recognize and reward such dynamics. * About afk/trolls I clearly stated in my original post that the system should consider them: "The same way, we could also consider the presence of one or more AFK players (or disconnected) to soften the LP loss". * Split pushing. I've played plenty of games as Tryndamere top doing nothing but that. I ended up with low kill participation, but with LCS tier cs and many turrets destroyed, often getting very good grades. I'm quite sure the mastery grades keep in consideration cs and objs taken and if you died a lot only to split push, you could have done something better. In closing, I'd like to remind you and everyone reading that the LP scaling should be properly engineered, here I'm just proposing a concept, not a final implementation. If I think about it, I obviously don't see people earning only 2 LP because they had a bad score, it should be just a trimming, of a certain magnitude, on the LP amount we're used to. Besides, it's all based on the fact that we have a performance indicator available; this indicator could be the actual mastery grades system, a modified/improved version of it or something different at all. If you had a perfect performance indicator, don't you think that tailoring the LP gain/loss around the individual player would be more fair?
Tarolock (EUW)
: didnt read the whole wall of text but heres my opinion on the topic: they shouldnt change LP gain/loss with grades, first of all (based on the boards topics) a lot of player still thinks that grading is all about kda, so they barely go fighting in fear of death, mixing in LP would just make it even worse, on the other hand if your teammates get b grades and you get S but lose why would you lose less LP? with that S grade one could say that you could help other lanes and possibly win the match in the first hand
The reason my post ended up being this long is because the topic is not simple at all and I tried to cover some issues that may arise. I admit starting a reply stating you haven't read what you're replying to is not the best way to go, so I'd suggest you to read it all and see that I already go over your doubts. Thanks for the comment, even if not agreeing I hope you can help sharing and spreading my suggestion :)
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Deus Machina II

Level 30 (EUW)
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