Rioter Comments
EDYinnit (EUW)
: Yasuo bug: 'Executed' by turrets when hit by champions
Bumping because happened again while a Graves was autoattacking him (not windwalled, taking damage between turret hits). Still unfixed.
: I played with locked camera as well when I started. However, I found it to be very limiting after learning to play a little bit. It's Ok and usable if you play a melee champion against another melee champion in lane. However, later in the game it is just limiting as you do not see half of the incoming projectiles coming towards you. There are so many skills across the board that exceed your locked camera vision. Most of these projectiles can easily be avoided if you see them in the. Having your camera locked guarantees exact opposite. It is highly recommended that you have your camera unlocked at all times. You can simply hit space bar and find yourself in the center of the screen again. Trust me on this, you will be hitting your space button a lot when you start but the more you play the less you will need it.
If you're on the edge of the screen, or not on the screen at all, there's an entire sector of the map where you're seeing _no_ projectiles coming towards you _at all_, not just seeing them a bit later than you otherwise might. Screen resolution does matter quite a bit, though. Locking an 800x600 would probably make most skillshots outrange your sight, but a 1920x1080 locked camera will keep the _vast_ majority of skillshots in sight range. Semiglobals and artillery still outrange, but they're easily unlocked for because they're generally not frequently available and/or used at _absolute max_ range. After all, you don't want someone stepping back 50 units and being off the far edge of your Final Spark or anything.
: That's why I said about... I know it's not the same but for all expressive purposes it's like a 180% scaling. And mind you most champions should win lane vs veigar so their ap will better than yours. > There are lots of options to mitigate that aspect of Veigar's damage that he has no control over you electing to use. > Also, 80% of your AP means for every 1 bonus hp you have, you can have 1.25 AP. Health-and-AP items have a good three or four hundred health, which buffers you from the damage you're 'giving' Veigar for having 420-500 AP. Build a RoA or a Rylai, or hell, even a Liandry. This isn't even a conversation about the R damage, we are talking about the W damage. That plus the R means his burst without Q farm is too high compared to what he should be. Like I said compare him to nasus... a full build nasus with no Q stacks is a joke... a full build veigar with no stacks can still do his job effectively, the extra ap is icing on the cake. So he does too well without Q farm than an infinite scaler should (look at sion, kindred, nasus, bard... all of them are terrible late without stacks, veigar isn't).
> [{quoted}](name=swampert919,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=Fk6cOR6N,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-16T16:32:50.526+0000) > > That's why I said about... I know it's not the same but for all expressive purposes it's like a 180% scaling. And mind you most champions should win lane vs veigar so their ap will better than yours. _Don't build glass cannon AP with your gold lead_. Do I have to link my thread on the subject in every Veigar thread? One health/AP purchase utterly cancels out that extra damage from two to three items even building heavy AP. It's so easily counteracted. > This isn't even a conversation about the R damage, we are talking about the W damage. That plus the R means his burst without Q farm is too high compared to what he should be. 100% AP scaling damage after a delay in a small AOE? Cho'gath does that without as long of a delay, gets to be a tank elsewhere in his kit _and_ has massive CC attached to it. And you can't 'just talk about the W damage'. We're talking about whether the nerf is needed _which is only relevant in consideration of the full kit_. > Like I said compare him to nasus... a full build nasus with no Q stacks is a joke... a full build veigar with no stacks can still do his job effectively, the extra ap is icing on the cake. Nasus with stacks is both a tank AND an insane damage dealer. Veigar with or without stacks is a damage dealer alone. Nasus will never be unstacked - he farms too well under the tower, and few champions can do consistently well harassing him in lane without pushing up as a consequence. How _many_ stacks just makes the difference between whether you die in 2 Qs or 4. Nasus has an ult as well. It gives him bonus AD and deals % damage... which means an ulting Nasus is, once again, always a threat. Not as much as when stacked.. but not a complete nonentity. He shuts down AS-based champs effectively at any stack level, too. > So he does too well without Q farm than an infinite scaler should (look at sion, kindred, nasus, bard... all of them are terrible late without stacks, veigar isn't). Veigar's ratios are _low_ which means he only _competes_ in his nuker role if he DOES get some stacks. He's the best in role if he gets many stacks - just like how a Nasus with many stacks is an unstoppable God-dog made pixels. It's not as possible to 100% shut Veigar out of the game as it was pre-rework (shorter Q range), but he's not exactly on par with the >300% scaling burst of others. 1185 _base_ damage from rank 5 QWR isn't _massively_ ahead of others either.
Cryptidian (EUNE)
: Give us a new icon for the Boots of Mobility :3
>essential > almost never buy it Getting _into_ a fight is easier than sticking to targets or moving around when you're in one. I don't need to have _even less_ MS when I already get outrun by the Phage-proccing fighter, or any opponent with a MS item like those that build out of {{item:3113}} {{item:3086}}. I buy {{item:3009}} personally, even in spite of them being pretty undertuned for their cost. Any time that extra 35 MS helps me get to that key Exhaust target, or keep up with my faster-moving ADC so I can be there to peel for them immediately, not later, makes it worth. (I'm not in a yoloqueue level where allies can take advantage of Mobi roaming or ever pay attention to the risk I undergo in deep warding against a competent enemy team anyway. I'd rather not go speeding off with Mobis, potentially get caught, then die because no MS and no help makes Support a free kill.) But personal style aside, the Mobi boots do look a little flat compared to all the redone item icons. (Just buff my Swiftboots when you go in to change the Mobi icon, while you're there!)
: It's still more than enough to kill people with a full combo, especially if you factor in the 80% scaling off the victims ap on his ult... which bops it up to around 340% scaling on ap carries... combine that ratio with infinitely stack ap and the snowball gets way too much.
80% scaling of target AP != 80% scaling of Veigar's AP. He has a lot more AP than you will (unless you're Cassiopeia and double-stacking Rabadon-like multipliers thanks to her passive) so 80% of your AP will _always be less effective_. There are _lots_ of options to mitigate that aspect of Veigar's damage that he has _no control over you electing to use_. Also, 80% of your AP means for every 1 bonus hp you have, you can have 1.25 AP. Health-and-AP items have a good three or four hundred health, which buffers you from the damage you're 'giving' Veigar for having 420-500 AP. Build a RoA or a Rylai, or hell, even a Liandry.
ChiTenshi (EUW)
: That's a Side-Effect Issue, that the Stun can sometimes be more Lethal than the Magic Damage due to the fact that Veigar's Allies may be nearby and can act upon it. Maybe that could be a possible Solution, make the Stun only last as long as the Remaining Ability Duration (If Veigar's 'E - Event Horizon' has 1 Second left in it's Duration, the Stun Duration is also 1 Second for any Enemies caught in the Wall).
Of course sometimes the stun is more lethal, but you're looking to remove all of Veigar's strengths in spite of his very abusable weaknesses. You're pretty out of position if you get caught _inside_ the cage to begin with, but _unlike other champs with access to AOE CC_, you can _still_ mitigate the threat and avoid a large portion of Veigar's damage unless you stood yourself onto the edge despite seeing it coming with its delay. You can't take away the ability for a champion to take advantage of bad positioning almost _entirely_, and leave him with nothing in return. It's a lose-lose situation.
: > [{quoted}](name=EDYinnit,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=u5jB0zLF,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2015-10-16T12:02:05.548+0000) > > If you let Veigar walk up to 650 range without being stunned beforehand you deserve it, it's no different than letting Annie walk up to you (Tibbers has 600 range point of cast and 290 additional radius = 890 engage range _without flash_). > > Except Veigar only kills one target, not three at a time. but he gets everyone to half percent while killing that target xp
Sure. With what, his __112.5 radius__, _delayed_ W? Not likely.
: He is too snowbally... he has his infinitely scaling ap which is nice and all but the casters at world summed up the issue nicely... "he doesn't need to stack ap because his ratios are so good"... his ratios allow him to kill stuff without stacking any ap From his Q which is a very bad design. He is supposed to be like nasus where he is godly at late game but is easy to shut down early due to the stacking mechanic, veigar can ignore the stacking mechanic entirely and one shot stuff with just a good build which defeats the objective of the kit (a full build nasus with no stacks is really bad, a full build veigar with no stacks is still very good). That's the issue here and that's what is getting nerfed, he actually has to farm up his ap now to do good burst instead of just being a mage and blowing people up.
"his ratios are so good" dat 260% AP tho Only utility mage/supports have worse scaling than that. For a nuke champ, his scalings suck. Diana has 330% AP ratio every 15 seconds, for example, with QRRW+passive. Morgana has massive utilty including immense CC and still sports about 329% AP ratio to any target on which she lands a Q.
: ok Go buy QSS on your AP carry, and all 5 ppl in my team will laugh and report you as your making your team purposly lose by trolling with items :D. Damn stop crying you little girl and accept the fact he gets what he needed ty to overbuffing. And btw, how could you know the range ect so exacly where almost none ppl plays him and you dont play him like you said earlier? wow dude you just spam bullshit on forums because the angry kid who lost his best laner because it needed a nerf. Damn i see under every post your reposnce... you rly must be butthurt from the nerf LOL. Good thing i stopped playing league seriously after S1-2 because of the kiddos crying whole time. I miss the beta times where there were serious players around and almost no crying kids and raging whole time because they are bad. Be happy that at least now you have some time to see the spell, before rework you would probably get raped every time veigar had ult and wall up.
But do you laugh at mages who buy {{item:3157}} ? {{item:3139}} is a top-tier AD stat item with powerful active and some defensive stats, just the same as Zhonya is for AP. Getting a QSS while you need it then selling it later when you can just stomp Veigar with all your _own_ advantages is viable as well. I'm sure your team would totally call you a troll for buying QSS when facing a Suppression champ like Warwick, Skarner or Malzahar too. Seems legit. Now, if I said buy Zhonyas on your ADC, maybe you'd have a little more of a leg to stand on. I played Veigar _pre-rework_ plenty, you dolt. I don't play him _currently_, so I am not biased at all to his gamestate because 'muh laner'. Do continue. You're only hurting your own argument.
: Im crying? im not the one with the irrational thread and crying to not nerf viegar LOL, the nerf is a fact comming and you cry like a little girl. And yes when you get 80ap + around 100 ap extra from stacks if you can good farm or more on 1st item buy IT IS OP, as any other mages have around half of the dmg in that time as veigar. So dont bitch around forums with your nonsens postings (on every comment like a little girl on a period) and accept the fact, he needs it and he will get it
I couldn't give even the loftiest of flying fucks about whether or not Veigar gets nerfed. Point is he probably doesn't need it, idiots are exaggerating as always. Hell, shouldn't I be in favour of the nerf if anything, considering I never play him and only face him? I posted on most comments because the board's slow otherwise at the moment, and due to RL things I don't have large spaces of time to commit to doing something that requires consistent action. Typing a comment doesn't need much or contiguous time. Veigar 'gets more AP' than other mages, but they all have their own functions - like larger _scaling_ on what they _do_ buy, or safety in delivering damage, or mobility, or anything else. You're hilariously tunnel-visioned and resorting to ad hominem attack to 'win' the 'argument'. Please do continue. Is it you going around downvoting all my other comments here too? If so, how childish.
ChiTenshi (EUW)
: Depends on the Champion Hit-Box (Larger Champions may not have the room to Dodge). Also, the Hit-Box of the Wall Edge on 'E - Event Horizon' isn't very clear, causing Players to keep a bigger distance from it due to their uncertainty (only the Professionals will know the Actual Hit-Box of said Wall, but the Game shouldn't be Balanced just for the Professionals).
True, but even jumping _into_ the wall at the right time can leave you stunned but avoid a large proportion of Veigar's damage. 38.5% for just dodging W, 61.5% if you dodge Q at the same time (Veigar tried to kill you in the instant and aimed right at you). Percentages are a little lower depending on you having AP yourself, and items adding damage effects e.g. Luden's, but still the principle remains. You're trapped already - if your options are get killed by Veigar's combo or eat a stun but much less damage from Veigar alone, then the second option is _always_ worthwhile, isn't it? There's the chance any of his allies might not be attentive enough to realise you dodged and capitalise in time.
: I guarantee you i will stun you with veigar at least every 2nd time, as i know his cages range exacly and have it on smartcast (and play him from 5 years already)... so either you will have flash every 15-20s or you will get shitted on. His lane farm buffs means he stacks faster and gets AP items faster - currently its to fast and needs a tuning... Its not your skill that lets you farm on veigar now, its the champ.
I bought Veigar as my first ever champ, doesn't mean shit. That's cool that you know the range and all, I knew the range and perimeter before the rework. You still get time to dodge now, to proactively avoid the spell. What was it before? Run cleanse/QSS or die? Hardly worse now than it ever has been...
: > [{quoted}](name=EDYinnit,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=u5jB0zLF,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-10-16T11:42:08.962+0000) > > Veigar gets less damage on any given target per stack than Nasus _at the moment_, even without this nerf. Wow thats a realy stupid argument there... first of all, Veigar can now farm stacks faster then nasus ty to his recent farm buffs, 2nd Veigar benefits his stacks on ALL 3 abilities, where nasus on ONE MELEE TO IT. > That's the enemy AP player's fault for not _building for the game they're playing_, instead _just following the same old glass cannon items and order_. > [As I expose in my thread here.](http://boards.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-en/HlWVFq0E-if-you-ever-feel-like-posting-q-q-veigars-ultimate-does-damage-when-i-am-the-one-whos-ahead) If you say that veigar ult getting stronger is fault of enemy AP build AP... then now i know why there are such nonsense written in your thread. Veigar ult will always scale with enemy, and there is nothingh the enemy can do about it either to build 0 AP (and not like in that link you made - half of the build you suggested dont work for more then few champs, and to it they reduce the dmg by 5-10% max by sacrificing way more for most champs = a bad idea that will probably cost you the game). To it recent lane farm BIG BUFFS got him out of hand to a place where with morellos only you can 1 shot ppl already and we forget his stun wall utility to it - that isnt balanced at all, as what you saw even in Worlds where such a weak team like C9 was owning way stronger team ty to Veigar 1 shotting almost anyone in their team while he wasnt fed. Ofc he deserves a special team setup and care, but still he currently gets his scaling to early considering he has double tripple scaling (stacks, enemy AP, your AP). He deserves the nerfs (like darius) so stop crying.
> [{quoted}](name=B4skerville,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=u5jB0zLF,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2015-10-16T12:23:45.792+0000) > > Wow thats a realy stupid argument there... > first of all, Veigar can now farm stacks faster then nasus ty to his recent farm buffs, > 2nd Veigar benefits his stacks on ALL 3 abilities, where nasus on ONE MELEE TO IT. Veigar gets 0.6, 1.0 and 1.0 damage per stack. Nasus gets 3 damage per stack. Both double on champs/siege/large monsters. Veigar's cooldowns are also larger than Nasus'. It's not possible for Veigar to always doubleQ a pair of minions. He needs to avoid pushing (squishy), and poke the other laner (immobile, so probably getting poked himself) > If you say that veigar ult getting stronger is fault of enemy AP build AP... then now i know why there are such nonsense written in your thread. > Veigar ult will always scale with enemy, and there is nothingh the enemy can do about it either to build 0 AP (and not like in that link you made - half of the build you suggested dont work for more then few champs, and to it they reduce the dmg by 5-10% max by sacrificing way more for most champs = a bad idea that will probably cost you the game). "Half of __the__ build"? I presented several different options. One of them is even still burst focused (pen first over AP). Reducing the damage isn't the entire equation. Adding beefiness (ROA/Rylai, MR) doesn't reduce damage, but it stops you being oneshot from your own AP. Yes, it's _your fault_ if you _die to Veigar's ult_ because you built Mejai's and Rabadon when you killed him early on. You know it scales with your AP. Why are you going glass cannon and letting him walk up to you? Meanwhile, it only being 80% of your AP means that you need 80 HP for every 100 AP you buy to even it out. It's not exactly a lot, now is it? You're getting 400+ from Rylai/RoA... which is enough to defend the damage from you having 500 AP. > To it recent lane farm BIG BUFFS got him out of hand to a place where with morellos only you can 1 shot ppl already and we forget his stun wall utility to it - that isnt balanced at all, as what you saw even in Worlds where such a weak team like C9 was owning way stronger team ty to Veigar 1 shotting almost anyone in their team while he wasnt fed. > Ofc he deserves a special team setup and care, but still he currently gets his scaling to early considering he has double tripple scaling (stacks, enemy AP, your AP). If by "buffs to farm" you mean "can farm _at all_ when in a bad matchup". Morello is 80 AP. That's 208 damage _before resists_. So scary. It's not like he scales higher with AP from items.. he just has his own source of AP as well. Sort of like Viktor does with his Core giving him AP/level. Veigar's cage used to be instant and still didn't get people crying about it all day. Its current delay and all the counterplay in the world from Tenacity/QSS/Cleanse is fine. > He deserves the nerfs (like darius) so stop crying. I don't even play him. You're the one crying.
ChiTenshi (EUW)
: It might be due to the lack of Counter-play available when stuck inside the centre of his 'E - Event Horizon', and then he proceeds to use 'W - Dark Matter'. Or it could be that it deals [120 / 170 / 220 / 270 / 320 (+ 100% AP)] Magic Damage to **All** Targets hit due to it's AoE Nature. The Solution to the Second Issue would be Reducing the Damage Output of the Ability if it hits more than 1 Target (Similar to Karthus' 'Q - Lay Waste'). I currently can't think of a Solution to the First Issue, the Mechanics of the AoE 'Cage' Stun make it hard to alter the Ability without destroying it.
The interior area of Event Horizon is 3 times larger than the impact AOE of Dark Matter. Even if Veigar places it dead-centre, you have plenty of room to dodge it.
v1rtue (EUW)
: If you don't know why Veigar is getting nerfed, I suggest you watch worlds. It showcases Veigars absurd one-shotting potential, for which he doesn't even need to hit all his spells. Later in the game just Q and R is enough to one-shot someone. They don't even have to be stunned for it.
If you let Veigar walk up to 650 range without being stunned beforehand you deserve it, it's no different than letting Annie walk up to you (Tibbers has 600 range point of cast and 290 additional radius = 890 engage range _without flash_). Except Veigar only kills one target, not three at a time.
JQKAndrei (EUW)
: I can't really see what else could someone like Trundle, Sion and Nasus do other than toplane, and be viable with it.
Well, all of them _are_ pretty viable junglers... Trundle clears like a boss, staying healthy, and can gank even a tank at level 6 thanks to his ult, while synergising well with Challenging Smite (many autos, much true damage). Sion had to be tweaked down _because_ of his jungle power. The terror in the enemy team when they hear the BONG of Sion ulting and don't know which lane he's about to roll into? That's fun. Nasus always has farm in the jungle, bypassing his "shut me down in lane early" weakness, and unless multiple enemies go roaming in to try to counterjungle him, he's pretty much safe against a single opponent as soon as he has Wither available because of the foreverslow.
Enjutsu (EUNE)
: Meh, most supports are rather similar, put in shield/heal(with some extra ability in it), speed boost, some cc, another ability and you have a support.
Similarity just makes the power difference and Karma's other shortfalls that much more readily apparent.
: Because his scaling speed was to much buffed, its not like nasus where you need to afk farm 20-25minutes to be usefull after recent changes you could get usefull in 10-15minutes easy and already 1 shotting most things (to it he has his ult that even if he is underfarmed and raped on lane, the more enemy AP is stronger, the stronger Veigar himself is also)
> [{quoted}](name=B4skerville,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=u5jB0zLF,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-10-16T11:26:17.131+0000) > > Because his scaling speed was to much buffed, its not like nasus where you need to afk farm 20-25minutes to be usefull Veigar gets less damage on any given target per stack than Nasus _at the moment_, even without this nerf. >he has his ult that even if he is underfarmed and raped on lane, the more enemy AP is stronger, the stronger Veigar himself is also That's the enemy AP player's fault for not _building for the game they're playing_, instead _just following the same old glass cannon items and order_. [As I expose in my thread here.](http://boards.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-en/HlWVFq0E-if-you-ever-feel-like-posting-q-q-veigars-ultimate-does-damage-when-i-am-the-one-whos-ahead)
: Why is Veigar getting nerfed?(actual question, no rant)
> [{quoted}](name=Abysmal Scream,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=u5jB0zLF,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-10-16T11:12:30.250+0000) > > and who can be shut down early like Nasus, when needed > And who doesn't become both tanky _and_ a ridiculous nuker later _even if_ you let him get there, he still stays pretty glass and reliant on protection / his stun. People QQ because 'pro pick' + failing to realise that they can solve the problem easily with a slight change in build or a handful of champ pick counters. Riot bows down. _Veigar already has less damage per stack than Nasus on any given target._
Enjutsu (EUNE)
: No, you're just looking at wrong reasons, reasons you don't like yourself that i just mentioned on a side. Well i didnt claim about theyr utility being similar before just that she's picked for utility, but theyr utility is rather similar: slow, speed boost and shield.
A comparatively weak (only 25% vs. 80%) and much easier to dodge slow (not a fast projectile, no passthrough). A shorter but initially stronger speed boost (that is _tied to_ her shield, importantly) that lasts 50% of the time down to 30% of the time and is matched in power at 50 + [50/rank] AP on Lulu. A shield that is in fact even _weaker_ than Lulu's which already has trouble mitigating sufficiently. A spell giving 60% AP scaling shield versus damage spells that deal 70+% scaling damage is bad enough, but a 50% scaling one is just not going to do the job. And of course, CC that is so weak and delayed as to be nearly useless unless used aggressively. Lulu also has: Instant _disabling_ CC x 2 (2.25 sec polymorph, 1.5 sec knockup ult) Ally 'healing' that ignores Grievous Wounds A better laugh for making the enemy tilt out of sheer annoyance Karma has (_with ult_): Larger damage potential (but is impossible to hit realistically while being safe) AOE protection (other than 'hard CC the threat') at 205 + 40% AP (weaksauce for an ult) AOE speed buff (still only lasts 1.5 seconds though) Non-ally healing...and a CC that remains as weak and delayed as ever, but at least lasts longer if it ever lands I suppose?
Sdars (EUW)
: Ok. It's really important, though. The way I see it, you have 3 options: 1. You play with locked camera and unlock it when you're not doing anything mechanically intensive. (Y to toggle locked/unlocked camera) 2. You play with semi locked camera, which allows you to set the angle at which you want the camera, within limits, and once again unlock it when needed. 3. You play with unlocked camera and use the center camera button very often. 1 is the best for your mechanics. 2 might take a while to get used to, and can be inferior to your mechanics, but might make your skill shot champion mechanics better. 3. this might be the worst for your mechanics, but it also might let you get used to unlocked camera, after a long time, without a big impact in your mechanics, like you would see from actually having to move the camera around all the time.
Oh yeah, see my own answers below for the importance and use of not _permanently_ locking camera. I frequently look around - but if I'm in a combat or potentially combative situation, locking (central or 'smart') is almost always worth it (personally). Persistent sight in 360 degrees around champion (go away, assassins) and minimising 'other stuff' I might have my mouse off doing when I need to put a spell _there_, _now_.
Sdars (EUW)
: 1. Try unlocked for 20 games, regardless of how uncomfortable it feels. 2. Realize what you've been missing out on. 3. Never look back.
1. Tried. Even played MOBAs with no lock, to enforce no relapsing, interspersed with League matches 2. Realised I function less mechanically well in League due to the burden of managing camera position at all times as well as everything else 3. Looked back.
: Just a few things. * I like it. Sometimes more, sometimes less than my propositions. Either way, I like it. * Concerning current RQ: Movespeed has a soft cap below 220 (raw MS*0.5 + 110 = actual MS). Having 330MS with a 50% slow doesn't make you move at 165MS, it actually is 192,5. This allows you to move 288.75units in 1.5s. But also keep in mind that you have to move your complete character model out of the radius, so your average ~~satan~~ teemo has to walk an additional 50units to move out of the radius. And somewhere out there, there exists a passive with 7.5/15% slow reduction... I guess your point still stands, but I just can't watch inaccurate calculations for too long :3. * Your new RQ must be the hardest heal to hit in the whole game ._. Wouldn't it be better to just heal nearby allies for a percentage of the damage dealt (before applying resistances). * I liked in Old Karma that her ult provided her with different kits. Like 3 damage spells (Q-W-RE) or 3 defensive spells (RQ-W-E). Considering this, your RQ should be utility (CC), your RW defensive (heal?) and your RE offensive (damage). So you have Stun-Root-Speed, Slow-Heal-Shield and Poke-Dot-Burst. * Lastly; I'm gonna steal some of your formating skills. Thank you very much :D IF somebody is interested in the mentioned rework I proposed and the problems that champion.gg makes evident, look here: http://boards.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-en/MEP0Qa0z-a-second-look-on-karma Now that the shameless selfpromotion is done too; nice post, see ya
> [{quoted}](name=SilverSquid,realm=EUW,application-id=ln3nNJrX,discussion-id=9gPp7KEv,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-10-15T21:25:02.679+0000) > > Just a few things. > > * I like it. Sometimes more, sometimes less than my propositions. Either way, I like it. > * Concerning current RQ: Movespeed has a soft cap below 220 (raw MS*0.5 + 110 = actual MS). Having 330MS with a 50% slow doesn't make you move at 165MS, it actually is 192,5. This allows you to move 288.75units in 1.5s. But also keep in mind that you have to move your complete character model out of the radius, so your average ~~satan~~ teemo has to walk an additional 50units to move out of the radius. And somewhere out there, there exists a passive with 7.5/15% slow reduction... I guess your point still stands, but I just can't watch inaccurate calculations for too long :3. Well, I presented the optimal case (for the aggressor) of no softcapped slows and let those mutually conflicting facets of that versus model go out in the proverbial wash. Yes, it's relevant, but ultimately clouds the point that it's nigh-impossible to hit. > * Your new RQ must be the hardest heal to hit in the whole game ._. Wouldn't it be better to just heal nearby allies for a percentage of the damage dealt (before applying resistances). Agreed that RQ's healing paradigm might not be the best. I wanted to bring back ally heal and Q being AOE while W is singletarget and E is already defensive made me lean on Q for this. I do want to keep something non-passive about it (aiming your old Q cone right for the ally heal was quite challenging but rewarding) but only happening on enemy strike (or max range) hinders this a bit. Perhaps RQ would allow twin Q projectiles, one damaging and one healing - which both collide+explode on their relevant target type? Might have to revisit the RRQ ground-field effect as a result of this, visual confusion between the 'bad' one and the 'good' one is possible if each projectile makes its own. > * I liked in Old Karma that her ult provided her with different kits. Like 3 damage spells (Q-W-RE) or 3 defensive spells (RQ-W-E). Considering this, your RQ should be utility (CC), your RW defensive (heal?) and your RE offensive (damage). So you have Stun-Root-Speed, Slow-Heal-Shield and Poke-Dot-Burst. I did think I rather nailed this, but like I said, the 'extra numbers' on RRQ delayed explosion could be possibly turned into CC power instead. (R)RE - W - Q = triple damage spells RQ - RW - E = triple defense (heal, damage reduction, shield) RRW - E - Q is utility to disable and lock down a single target (keep up with them with E speed/Q slow, reduce their damage from RW, RRW stuns them if they don't escape) All of the Enlightenment options give you access to similar baselevel properties (particularly in damage) with additional effects, which I felt important too. RRQ gives top-end damage output with its execute component, RRW gives top-end disable of a single target (in line with base W being primarily for root), RRE gives the biggest mitigation and utility mix with the AOE shield/speed, all of which don't sacrifice the entire capacity of the other 'needs' to do so. > * Lastly; I'm gonna steal some of your formating skills. Thank you very much :D Welcome. > IF somebody is interested in the mentioned rework I proposed and the problems that champion.gg makes evident, look here: > http://boards.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-en/MEP0Qa0z-a-second-look-on-karma > > Now that the shameless selfpromotion is done too; > nice post, see ya I deserve that mutual promoting, but then there is no private message feature on the boards, so my options were limited for letting _you_ know! --- If there's any more suggestions or other things you can address in this concept, please do come back and post them. It might be futile, but I put enough effort into this that I want to at least make a good try of fixing it up to a desirable and _implementable_ state.
Darlantan12 (EUNE)
: big buff for cho
Jesus christ that buff is sickening. Chog is already on the OP side of things, he doesn't need _anything_ to help him.
: That might be a better way to make TL;DRs Is it allowed tho?
I'd TLDR a post as a reply to itself _in the same board_, but because Champs and Gameplay is a different board to where I posted the original, giving it its own thread with a little "here's what to expect expanded at the source" portion is the best way to get people looking who don't visit the Suggestions and Bugs board. It's relevant in both boards anyway.
Verrier97 (EUW)
: Well, of course, for jinx ult, tp and stuff like that i unlock it, but for laning and teamfights never. Also i frequently check the minimap for vision.
Minimap vision and globals/tp isn't everything. Sometimes you just need to look around more closely in a general sense. But as long as you can learn and keep in mind unlocking appropriately, then in my personal opinion locked is fine. I play locked but frequently unlock. If there's no immediate danger (and no risk of getting jumped because vision + minimap) it's good to go check how your other laners are doing and stuff, or go check health, mana, behaviour of the person in a lane you're heading to - you can read from their behaviour whether you're already caught with a ward, or if they're clearing a wave to go back right after, and might change your path accordingly (e.g. waiting a little for them to clear the one wave and back, then hard push right afterwards while they're still at the shop, while showing your face before might incline them to stay longer). Locking for the right reason is fine. Not unlocking despite the right reasons is bad. That's all you need to consider.
Verrier97 (EUW)
: How important is free camera?
There's a stigma against locked camera that is really unwarranted - IF you unlock your camera _at times_ and look around sufficiently to __not be tunnel-visioned__, there's no problem with having your camera locked for a fight and _general use_. It lets you focus more on your mechanics and always have sight of your surroundings in case of assassins etc. Some champions benefit greatly from unlocking even for general use, however. Those who outrange the area locked camera displays (global/semiglobal ults, artillery), and plays where you can do a large mobility spell then target a specific point (e.g. champion or narrow/slow precision skillshot) __can__ benefit from unlocking your camera before executing the manoeuvre as your target point will be the same before and after you travel, which can increase the timeliness and reliability of targeting the right place afterwards.
EDYinnit (EUW)
: (Crossposted for visibility) Rework Suggestion: Karma, the Enlightened One
EDYinnit (EUW)
: [Rework suggestion] Karma, the Enlightened One
You downvoters should be posting your issues with the concept so I can potentially make tweaks and improvements.
: Tell me more about how i play... Silver 1 to former plat 4. There's a reason i've been there and a reason you are still in silver. (inb4 hate comments i am gold 2 right now, took a break and borrowed my account, wasn'T the best idea). As ADcarry u won'T even come into veigar range?? If he's braindead maybe, yes. Do u even play this game brah? Merc Boots won't help. Whereu see a counter to either Veigar or Syndra ult in building Zephyr might be your secret. Mercurial isn'T a counter item either to one of those two ults. The only "counter" is Banshee and GA. Banshee is easily broken. And i am not even talking about counter. I am talking about no risk, very high reward. Veigar and Syndra are two of the most safe champs out there. superior range to most champions, very high dmg. And you need only point and click. I am pretty sure u were one of those crying about Ryze he only needs to "point and click". Veigar's ult should be his Q and Q can be point and click or stay as it is. To Syndra u have to lower her base ult dmg so that she especially in the late game needs to atleast drop some of her Q to deal dmg. Soo if you could read and UNDERSTAND what i wrote you would've known i am talking about any point+click ult which can instantly delete any one. Difference is, Cho'Gath needs to be in a 125 range if i'm not mistaken. If he doesn'T land a lucky Q GG. Fiora also needs to get into your range and btw fiora has no point+click 1000 true dmg ult so i don'T know what you are talking about. I am sure u don'T even know yourself what you are talking about. You come up with crap arguments which have no connection to my topic. Garen's villain passive take the one with the most recent kills. Not much effort to put into? Every champ got changed. For example fizz now needs to hit his ult if he wants to burst someone down because "high risk high reward". This happened to several champs. Yet extremly safe champs in lane and in the teamfight like veigar and syndra got a point+click insta delete ult. No risk, best reward. That's what i am talking about. Same is for garen, his base dmg is way too high, together with his slow break, movement speed buff etc. U can easily run through the enemy lane pint+click enemy carry dead and u just press Q again and walk away as if nothing happens. Thing about garen is his silence too which riot removed from several champs due to the lack of counterplay... yeah right. So i just conclude you have no clue what i am talking about otherwise you wouldn'T post such a crap answer. Oh and btw in my league it won'T happen often you can get 8 kills in a lane due to brain dead enemy.MAybe in silver crap but not in high gold-plat, So mejai's won'T be a thing on the champs i play and rabadon's is mostly the third or fourth item i build but hey just suck something out from your ass so it atleast looks like you have an "argument"
> [{quoted}](name=GayFluffyUnicorn,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=9TcYe8Em,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2015-10-15T17:41:27.385+0000) > > [ad hominem attack] Tell me more about how I apparently don't play the game despite a solid win rate in a non-carrying champion pool and role. > As ADcarry u won'T even come into veigar range?? If he's braindead maybe, yes. Do u even play this game brah? > Merc Boots won't help. Whereu see a counter to either Veigar or Syndra ult in building Zephyr might be your secret. 650 range ult. You let a non-mobile AP carry walk up that close unmolested and you basically deserve it. Plus, even the weakest ADC has 1844 base health at level 18 (Ezreal). That and no AP means Veigar needs 1344 AP _and 100% penetration_ to oneshot you with his ult alone. Applying the full 30 base MR means you have 2397.2 or greater HP effectively, and Veigar now needs almost 2000 AP. Exaggerate much? Of course Mercurial and Zephyr counter him... because _you need to eat his stun for him to walk up that close_. Tenacity reduces that, giving you a chance to get away before the big ball o' death comes rolling towards you. > Mercurial isn'T a counter item either to one of those two ults. The only "counter" is Banshee and GA. Banshee is easily broken. And i am not even talking about counter. I am talking about no risk, very high reward. Veigar and Syndra are two of the most safe champs out there. superior range to most champions, very high dmg. And you need only point and click. I am pretty sure u were one of those crying about Ryze he only needs to "point and click". Want to talk risk? How about the fact that if you _do_ counter Veigar's ult you can kill him while he has no answer? Veigar is a squishy and immobile mage. Without landing his stun, he's an easy kill unless you're building 1000 AP and no health/resistance as well. Syndra also generally needs to stun you before she's safe enough to float over and teabag you to death. Oh, and actually I wrecked Ryze because i'm not stupid enough to feed him enough early, but ~anecdotes~. > Veigar's ult should be his Q and Q can be point and click or stay as it is. To Syndra u have to lower her base ult dmg so that she especially in the late game needs to atleast drop some of her Q to deal dmg. Syndra's minimum damage is 540+60% AP. If you're dying to just that, I don't know what to say. Hyperbole will get you nowhere but sounding like an idiot. > Difference is, Cho'Gath needs to be in a 125 range if i'm not mistaken. If he doesn'T land a lucky Q GG. If Veigar/Syndra don't land a stun they don't get to do theirs either. Cho'Gath can probably just walk up to you and tank all the damage with his immense Feasted health pool to eat you if you're not keeping distances. > Fiora also needs to get into your range and btw fiora has no point+click 1000 true dmg ult so i don'T know what you are talking about. I am sure u don'T even know yourself what you are talking about. You come up with crap arguments which have no connection to my topic. Look again, that was only in response to your comment about 'true damage ults', not about point-click deletion ults. > Garen's villain passive take the one with the most recent kills. Not much effort to put into? > Every champ got changed. For example fizz now needs to hit his ult if he wants to burst someone down because "high risk high reward". > This happened to several champs. There's four other potential villains on your team that Garen might be targeted on. It's not in his power to select a true damage target. And, although at this point we're _not talking about deletion ults_, Fizz's risk extends about as far as "missed my ult, can't YOLO in for guaranteed kill and actually have to work with my team". > Yet extremly safe champs in lane and in the teamfight like veigar and syndra got a point+click insta delete ult. > No risk, best reward. That's what i am talking about. Same is for garen, his base dmg is way too high, together with his slow break, movement speed buff etc. U can easily run through the enemy lane pint+click enemy carry dead and u just press Q again and walk away as if nothing happens. Thing about garen is his silence too which riot removed from several champs due to the lack of counterplay... yeah right. > So i just conclude you have no clue what i am talking about otherwise you wouldn'T post such a crap answer. Garen i'll grant you every argument, but saying Veigar is safe is just nonsense. He is and always will be a squishy, glaring target that dies unless he can land his (delayed) stun right on the threat(s) heading towards him. Haven't played Syndra enough to notice, but the fact I haven't _seen_ her either suggests she isn't super-safe, super-free-kill freelo. Even bronzies can pick up on what champs are blatantly OP and stomp with them if they're legitimately broken. > Oh and btw in my league it won'T happen often you can get 8 kills in a lane due to brain dead enemy.MAybe in silver crap but not in high gold-plat, So mejai's won'T be a thing on the champs i play and rabadon's is mostly the third or fourth item i build but hey just suck something out from your ass so it atleast looks like you have an "argument" So you get to pull theoretical ideas and pure hyperbole out of your rear end but I can't even cast aspersions on your build path? Shows what intellect you have to have to reach.. What was it? Low to mid plat?
ThePompf (EUW)
: I dont know.... Karma got reworked WAY too often in my opinion. People hated what Rito did to her in her last major change(Cut dmg on EVERYTHING, but more utility) People miss the old Karma, but i think you should let Her how she is now. She is balanced in my opinion, so why change it?
Why change it? Firstly because your opinion on her being balanced, although you're entitled to it, isn't reflected by statistics and the 'game feel' experience of many Karma players. Or, more specifically, she may be 'balanced' but if she is, then League _around her_ is not. Secondly because she's gradually lost her identity and unique features over the reworks. Thirdly, because her "additional utility" is actually not reliable enough for her to be a mage/support. The delays and lack of hard, safe-delivered CC are to blame here. She either needs _even more_ damage and reliability with her current kit (despite people saying _ZOMG RQ_ it's really not that fantastic, especially since the second damage explosion is impossible to land without CC as described in the OP) or a reworking of some sort to bring back Karma _as Karma_ as well as helping her be more viable in the later stages of the game, not just be a shieldbot. I chose the latter, and did my best to present it in such a way that old and new Karma players would both feel familiar (bringing back 'shield bomb', ally healing and Spirit Bond tether play while retaining effects form the current skillset).
: Sorry a point and click ult which can instally delete u without any effort is just op. Same thing i hate about syndra (recently played against her). Without dropping any Q or maybe one her ult deals 1200 dmg. So u just press ult+ignite enemy carry is dead. And it gets even worse with true dmg ults. All crying abot darius, but darius atleast needs stacks before he deals dmg unlike Garen for example. And the NA EU thing. Riot just don'T care about EU especially EUW and i understand them. Just read the boards. Only whiny kids posting, insulting, flaming. NA boards they atleast try to behave.
> [{quoted}](name=GayFluffyUnicorn,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=9TcYe8Em,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-10-15T15:17:30.705+0000) > > Sorry a point and click ult which can instally delete u without any effort is just op. > Same thing i hate about syndra (recently played against her). > Without dropping any Q or maybe one her ult deals 1200 dmg. So u just press ult+ignite enemy carry is dead. Attack Veigar once as ADC and he dies too. Or you could buy _anything_ to counter it... {{item:3102}} {{item:3139}} {{item:3172}} {{item:3111}} {{item:3157}} {{item:3026}} But you're probably the kind of person who gets an early kill on Veigar then builds Rabadon + Mejai and wonder why he kills you. > And it gets even worse with true dmg ults. All crying abot darius, but darius atleast needs stacks before he deals dmg unlike Garen for example. > not mentioning {{champion:31}} {{champion:114}} "At least Garen needs you to be the villain" - all _those two_ need is to get close to you for half a second.
Rioter Comments
: A second look on Karma
Hey SilverSquid. You said in the last thread you looked forward to seeing it... [I finally posted an initial draft of my rework idea.](http://boards.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/suggestions-bug-reports-en/9gPp7KEv-rework-suggestion-karma-the-enlightened-one)
Rioter Comments
: personally I love karma as support and midlaner, she has a fun poke based kit and can survive most ganks with a R+W, E and only really has problems against burst champions. she sometimes has a hard time in early game but her late game poke is amazing, she isn't the best support there is but she is good at what she does, poke harrase and ingage. her Q is one of the strongest poke there is since both her Q and Ult are on such a low cooldown while having high damage, her W can be used to survive attacks while also able to catch out people in the enemy team, her E can be used as a strong ingage or disingage tool and with an Talisman it becomes nearly imposible to run from a Karma and her team. like i said before Karma isnt the best champ there is but she good at what she does, just a bit tricky to play sometimes
>Her late game poke is amazing A relatively slow moving, middle-ranged projectile (950, only gains its additional 250 radius explosion on contact) that deals 260+60% damage is 'amazing'? Compared to, say, Lux who has an effective 1450 range E (1100 cast + 350 radius) that travels faster and deals only 20 less base damage with identical scaling, and also has the Binding poke/pick to go with it? >ult tho So you've increased the damage to 435+90% and added an effective 250 range (1200 total). Cool. It's _mathematically impossible_ to hit the second part of the explosion without CC so that's 350+60% damage we _can't add_. Now what was Lux again? Oh yeah, 500+75% AP in __3340__ range _and_ allows her to still cast her normal poke spell as well, for a combined 740+135% at 1450 range or less. >[Karma is] good at what she does Karma is good at __not dying _herself___ and __laning__. In lane, there's almost no situation where a good Karma can't use her Shield as mobility and health buffer to deflect all poke attempts while reacting in kind with well placed Qs. E and RW keep her safe in gank situations generally. Having a measly 240% AP scaling on the other hand _ruins_ her viability as items start coming in. In fact, I had a particularly good game where I built bruiser and just splitpushed all day. Spirit Visage, Frozen Heart and plenty of HP (RoA/Rylai) mean that it generally takes three people to wear you down. (Having exhaust despite being in top due to an impromptu laneswap helped further). Taking advantage of Karma's refusal to die.
: Yes, good point. I still doubt however, what the power of the item will be, I think it can get out of hand really really quickly, if the numbers are just a little wrong. There is also little counterplay against the item. Zhonya's can be timed against you because you are stuck, you can work around QSS by timing your cc right and not all at once. The counterplay against this item would be completely disengaging your assassin or completely refocussing to engage someone else. There are champions that can have this effect on a teamfight as well, but I don't know if it's a good idea to give this power to an item. So I'm basically just afraid of the impact this item can have, which might result in all tanks getting nerfed through some Rito logic, IDK. >Having said that, before I ruminate more, I forget how exactly the sharing worked.... 60% of the damage received after the target's resists dealt as if true damage to your own health? 60% of the unmitigated damage dealt to target (raw values) dealt to you and reduced by your resists? 60% of damage after target's resists dealt to you and reduced by your own resists? I honestly don't know. If I were to guess it would be the second option, and I hope it would be the second option, because it's probably the most balanced, although the first might prove for some interesting situations, stacking health would then be more effective than building armor/mr, which is interesting.
> [{quoted}](name=IcyPhoenix1100,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=8b4df7uo,comment-id=0006000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-14T15:21:02.817+0000) > > Yes, good point. I still doubt however, what the power of the item will be, I think it can get out of hand really really quickly, if the numbers are just a little wrong. There is also little counterplay against the item. Zhonya's can be timed against you because you are stuck, you can work around QSS by timing your cc right and not all at once. The counterplay against this item would be completely disengaging your assassin or completely refocussing to engage someone else. There are champions that can have this effect on a teamfight as well, but I don't know if it's a good idea to give this power to an item. > So I'm basically just afraid of the impact this item can have, which might result in all tanks getting nerfed through some Rito logic, IDK. A very valid fear. Because it isn't enough that tanks are already the worst for itemisation, better nerf armour because juggers build some, right? :v Honestly, while Martyr brings a fantastic option for protecting allies, it still fails to address the real issue for tanks. A full-built tank still dies in 5 seconds against an equal-built damage opponent, particularly ADCs, and rarely have the damage (in the case of _real_ tanks, not fighters or juggers) to achieve the ideal "90% received damage reduction -> 10% damage done vs. 90% damage done -> 10% received damage reduction" kind of comparison against their damage opponents due to diminishing resistances and penetration. Add an additional share of damage to that and the Time To Live for a tank is probably going to drop even more. When you die in 4 seconds, why not just build damage if you have the option? Dead enemies deal 100% reduced damage. > 60% of the damage received after the target's resists dealt as if true damage to your own health? > 60% of the unmitigated damage dealt to target (raw values) dealt to you and reduced by your resists? > 60% of damage after target's resists dealt to you and reduced by your own resists? > > I honestly don't know. If I were to guess it would be the second option, and I hope it would be the second option, because it's probably the most balanced, although the first might prove for some interesting situations, stacking health would then be more effective than building armor/mr, which is interesting. Regarding the possibility of it being option 1: the item itself gives health without resists - which would follow logically with self-synergistic effects like Shiv (attack speed -> stacks faster) and BotRK (attack speed -> more %hp passive procs). However, I don't feel like that addresses the severe weakness that resistance has (particularly armour) in current League. It just makes health-ball champs even more effective (Titanic Hydra already supplied this offensively, Warmog supplies it defensively.. I suppose Martyr supplies it in utility?), and BOTRK reign even more supreme than it already does, in its overtuned/overloaded state. Until there's good resistance itemisation, armour that isn't reduced by 54% on already slot-inefficient items, true tanks are still going to have their issues.. they're more reliant on support from their team (specifically damage sources) than the ADC is. And that's just wrong.
: So Doran's only for bad matchups? I've been taking it all the time. What is the normal start? Cloth 5? Sword and pots?
Basically you hit it right on the nose there. Against a bad matchup (and AD opponent) I'd go cloth+pots. Anything I can fight back against reasonably well I go Longsword and pots. Doran's blade was never quite as useful since the nerfing (although it needed it for its other users), but Shield _could_ be a usable start against AP opponents with mostly single-target damage or that will likely use plenty autos as well. Although I'd actually also suggest going directly into an early Cleaver if you can, because it fits perfectly into Renekton's stat needs. Some beefiness, some damage, and that sweet _sweet_ CDR.
Kauski (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Tobykachu,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=powyXGa6,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-10-14T13:03:51.853+0000) > > The 0 build path options is probably the reason they're so snowbally. If you fall behind then you're still probably going to build the same thing as you would do if you were ahead. There's no real, 'oh I'm losing lane, well I'll build this to stop my opponent from snowballing even harder on me'. > > Like for mid lane. Oh, you're losing vs an AD assassin, 'well I'll rush Zhonya's instead of Rabadon's to stop the snowball even further.' Losing to an ap mid, build Abyssal sceptre and gg it's super hard for them to kill you'. nonono as marksmans dont have high dmg on abilities, they are based on autoattack dmg, so there is only 1 build path for maxin your DMG, if you go for different path, your dmg is too low and ur useless
+ {{champion:104}} + Q: 75% bonus AD with possible + 37.5% and another + 37.5% (150% bonus AD in total) + R: 150% bonus AD + {{champion:222}} + W: 140% _total_ AD + R: 100% bonus AD + {{champion:429}} + Q: 100% total AD + E: 60% bonus AD + 30% bonus AD _per additional auto_ + {{champion:236}} + Q: 120% bonus AD + R: 25% bonus AD x 13 to 17 (325% to 425%), _more_ with extra AS Meanwhile your AD casters... Let's use {{champion:91}}. Q = 130% bonus AD W = 120% bonus AD R = 150% bonus AD I'm sorry, what low damage abilities? Besides Talon having three abilities to the two in each case presented above (not counting Lucian's passive as an extra source on each ability), the scalings are pretty much still there.
: I'm not against the item, like I said, I would love to be able to make big protective plays in teamfights as an active tank. I am afraid that what the item gives is too much. Being able to soak up at least half of the damage that is aimed and done to someone else, without considering positioning and such, is very very strong. So to try and see how items with similar actives (adding a lot to a kit) I put DFG in comparison. What you say is indeed a good comparison, Shiv gives waveclear, but I feel it is weaker it what it gives. The charge and damage it does don't instantly clear a wave, they just help to do so. While DFG literally gives burst, and Martyr's would soak up sooo much damage that what it adds is so much more than e.g. Statik does. In your description of that amazing teamfight, the issue is that everything the enemy team does will be useless. Saving someone from a rengar burst shouldn't be done as easily as just pressing the button for an item, because rengar's whole kit is that ult assassination. Being able to prevent that AND being able to do the normal tank stuff your champion would normally do, is just too much I think.
Saving yourself from burst as a mage is as easy as pressing Zhonya at the right time. Saving yourself from killer CC can be as easy as hitting QSS. You have to manage reaction time and distance (I don't recallthe cast range of Martyr) - you can't just selfcast or simply press the button and have it automatically target the right person. The Shiv example wasn't really a matter of the item strength, but its function - for every millisecond of faster clear Shiv gives to a weak clearing carry, a faster clearing carry gains the same if they buy it too. Its power is also heavily invested in the active, too. As with most tank items, its slot efficiency is god-awful at only 400 hp and 10% CDR. It'll never be a must-buy because it doesn't have the raw stats to back it up where its niche functionality isn't needed - look at BotRK for an example of this. Even against non-health-stacking champions, you get some nice stats and an immensely powerful active (kiting), while the passive is weaker. Martyr's is the inverse, you get comparatively weak passive power for a strong active. The active won't even be all that strong unless you have the right stats yourself. You wouldn't see a squishy 2000 hp champ pick up Martyr because "damage reduction OP" when it means _two_ champions get killed in a vain attempt to save one. Plus, Kayle and Zilean save people with a single click, so it's not exactly unheard of. In fact, they can't even double-down on the strength of the item effectively like the Shiv example - they have a saviour button, but generally don't get beefy enough to make sharing the damage worthwhile. --- Having said that, before I ruminate more, I forget how exactly the sharing worked.... 60% of the damage received after the target's resists dealt as if true damage to your own health? 60% of the unmitigated damage dealt to target (raw values) dealt to you and reduced by your resists? 60% of damage after target's resists dealt to you _and_ reduced by your _own_ resists?
: Well as a support i cant realy judge, im a bad sup , and a avg player overall. But after 3 years regardless of scaling and mechanics the last few weeks when i played karma i did not get countered. Keeping in mind that karma is not a one man army like darius or champs like that. I just make them soft with Q using my e fist , then wait for r and finish with e R Q. ive manage to deliver Q's full build with about 1200 ap dmg if ludens is stacked ( wich i wait for ) it will be about 1400) land a mantra Q is more lol. so yes i do think she's viable to play mid and apc. atleast in the right hands.
Was that meant to be a reply to me (or anyone else for that matter)? I think you're typing in the wrong places there buddy. The numerical facts can't lie - 1045 + 240% AP is an absolutely terrible combo output. If it was all dealt instantly (and kept its low cooldowns) it might be more manageable, but RQ _with luden_ only hits 260 + 175 + 100 (+100%AP) base damage without the second pop. It's statistically impossible to hit the second explosion against non-CC'd targets that actually _try_ to escape, meaning you have to work with an ally or put yourself in danger with W to land the root, which is totally unviable in lategame with a squishy build. I have to question your claim of hitting 1200 with a Q. 260+60% AP would mean you'd need 1566 AP against a zero-MR target. Considering the upper limit on build alone is in the low 1000 area, no. With RQ initial strike you're hitting 345+90% AP which would need 950AP. Possible, but again, reduced by MR. She's not unviable, but she falls off insanely because she only has a max of 240% scaling, which she can't even deliver safely. Like I said, her only winning strategem is to shut down the opposing laner and hope her team can use that fact to win early, or she's just going to end up a glorified shieldbot with a little poke+slow, no ranged pick potential like Morgana or Lux, no safely-executed combo with hard CC/displacement like Orianna. I can count on one _finger_ the amount of times I've been 'countered' as mid Karma, but the amount of times I've been beaten despite stomping the opposing laner is much greater. Some of that's down to teammates at my tier still getting themselves killed by not paying attention to my missing pings even though my opponent can't fight me, but I can't push the nexus down alone. I could try, overextend and lose my advantage (even Karma can't _always_ escape all the way from one nexus to the other against multiple opponents)... or I could try to keep pressure in my lane and lend aid elsewhere, hoping my teammates can get a global lead out of my personal one. Doesn't always happen. If the enemy team can stall until fourth item and greater, that enemy mid is probably getting back on track thanks to better scaling.
: thx for the input guys! i can agree its not an easy champ to master, but like some one said if you have a aggressive play style i think she is still viable, about the mana i agree 100% and the actual cooldown first levels is to high, but when i build in this order i have not yet have any problems: {{item:3285}} {{item:1313}} {{item:3165}} {{item:3174}} {{item:3089}} {{item:3157}} Using ap runes only and 21/0/9 masteries you good to go, ive had games doing almost 100k dmg in less then 30
Building like that means you have to get and stay ahead. It's like playing a tank - you're playing against 5 champions _and time itself_: needing to win before your terrible efficiencies (scaling for Karma, slot-power for tanks) make you incapable of doing your job. Because RQ is impossible to hit with the full damage at 1.5 seconds' delay without additional CC, you need to go up and be in danger for 2 seconds with W. Otherwise you lose 350+60% AP out of your already low 1045+240% maximum damage potential. For that reason, you can't _really_ afford to stay squishy - and health helps RW utterly remove the potential to be assassinated. Try a healthier build, something like: {{item:3027}} {{item:3174}} {{item:3116}} {{item:3089}} {{item:3158}} [ {{item:3135}}/{{item:3157}} ] Or for maximum trolling, go Counter Bruiser: Bruiser Karma! {{item:3027}} {{item:3110}} {{item:3065}} {{item:3111}} {{item:3116}} [ {{item:3157}} or any useful item depending on needs ] Almost guaranteed to survive using RWs until you run your mana out. Tested and approved against {{champion:107}} {{champion:157}} {{champion:131}}. That was a fun game.
DELDE115 (EUW)
: People Underestimate Karma, The reason I dont play her a lot os because I like other champions more. I play her as support because Its really fun and super powerful. But again, as a support main, I like other champions that are a lot more fun like Bard. Maybe Midlane isnt that good, because of the meta, but Support Karma can destroy any botlane no matter what meta we are on.
>Support Karma can destroy any botlane Until you get ganked or put into any sort of disadvantageous position, at which point her kit delays ruin your hopes and dreams. Karma is good _proactively_, but her _reactive_ potential in support is approximately nil. And until the enemy ADC buys lifesteal or is Graves, at which point your poke is doing nothing but pushing your lane since you're probably going to hit minions.
: Karma
Because her damage is actually bad, and her kit is full of delays that make her almost impossible to play offensively later in the game. 1045 + 240% AP for a full combo is terrible for a mage's lategame. Add the 3 second delay in dealing the damage _while being in danger yourself_ and you have a champ that wins early, or relegates herself to shieldbot. Compare to Diana, whose combo is 1100+330% AP on a 15 second cooldown and comes out in the time it takes to autoattack 3 times. Compare to Morgana, who deals her damage over 4.5 seconds but has the CC immunity and locks the target down for the entirety of those 4.5 seconds with a root into stun. And deals 1260+329% AP (increased even further based on missing health) with this combo. She can't even succeed in a support role (statistically her worst at the moment) because her CC is non-disabling (only immobilising, attacks and non-mobility spells still available) and takes a static 2 seconds to land. That's next to useless when you get put into a reactionary situation, like Rengar appearing out of his ult for a gank. All she can do is put a mediocre shield on her carry and hope the pair of them can walk away. Karma's _good_ at defending _herself_. Yes, she has the AOE shield, but that's an ult that mitigates the damage of a basic AOE spell. She shines with her RW, but that only heals herself. Karma is best played to shut down a snowbally mid or top lane as, with skill, she has few to no bad matchups due to her self-defense and effectiveness of her utility __in the earlier stages of the game__ (before her bad scaling kills her). Especially effective against anyone who needs to stay close to function. Play against Zeds, Rengars, Dianas, Rivens and similar.
: What are Renekton's bad matchups?
Denying his skirmish and/or ranged poke counter Renekton hard. Try fighting a Jayce, who will whittle you down from a range and just hammer you away every time you Slice in. It's an unhappy time if the Jayce doesn't get brave and try to all-in for a kill at the wrong time. 14 second cooldown on mobility. The slightest disengage followed by proper kiting removes Renekton from the fight.
: Why do you think I completely ignored ZZ'rot in the first place... I just listed it as a possibility like thornmail (and thornmail won't be that bad as almost everyone on their team has to auto attack to do most of their burst so with enough armour (which he would have pretty much enough) it would be a decent pick up, plus 100 armour can't be ignored). I was more suggesting getting GA as it's a guaranteed 30% ish increase to your effective health on top of the resistances while reducing all of the damage taken and protecting against every member of their team (also remember that it won't be just zed with % damage... MF likes to buy bork and teemo and fiddle love lisandrys, so if they deemed it necessary then they could have brought them to further handicap mundo's choice to build health (and judging from the rylies pick up fiddle was planning to get a lisadries at some point)).
You need around 400 bonus armour to make Thornmail worthwhile versus AD threats compared to its previous incarnation. It's just _bad_. 100 armour can't be ignored? No, but it can be reduced by 54% and when it offers no other defensive stat, that matters. Even Froheart has the CDR (if champ has defensive abilities) and the aura, when the armour is irrelevant because penetration stacking. In anything other than a 1v1 situation, the opposing resistance _does_ directly offer some resilience against a monotyped damage champion - because you have more health to spend on _their_ damage after taking _anything_ from the other type. Liandry's Torment is basically useless for its percentile damage except in very few circumstances (persistent DOTS with irrelevant or no cooldown, e.g. Singed, Teemo, Cassio, Brand passive). It's overshadowed so much by how utterly overtuned BotRK is. Liandry's needs a second item just to deal 4% hp per second - BotRK deals 8% per attack, and _every_ champ has over 0.5 attack speed. It's also got the incredible active as well. To keep Liandry rolling on non-DoT champs could require very suboptimal usage of spells that would limit utility. BotRK doesn't suffer this either, it's just autoattacks. GA only gives you that effective health on a notable and visible cooldown. Respawning with Warmogs always gives you the health. Essentially, there are _no winning moves_ for the tank character to make as soon as [Cleaver and/or LW] + BotRK are involved. Armour is countered. Health is countered. The just have to figure out what they can pick that _sucks the least_ in the given situation. Is that fair or fun for an entire role?
: Oh yeas, you COW you, you will be OP you... Just think of this: {{champion:36}} + {{champion:12}} +{{champion:201}} +{{champion:98}} + any hypercarry ( {{champion:67}} or {{champion:11}} or sth.), who will be completely immune to all damage xD
Seriously, though, the same thing applies here as has applied with every failed item introduction that is _meant_ to 'even' the playing field: _Nothing stops the champions strong in that area from buying the item meant to help other champions compensate their weakness in that area_. See: {{item:3087}} "for wave clear". It was _intended_ to give weak minion-wave clearing ADCs like Ezreal an option to deal with hard push - but nothing really stops good-clear ADCs e.g. Tristana picking it up and either doubling that inherent pressure (opponent doesn't buy Shiv), or at worst losing nothing in comparison (both buy it). So Martyr's Gambit gives other champions the power to defend a target like Braum etc... Nothing stops Braum picking it up as well, and expanding his defensive options. Now you have a tool to defend your ADC from assassin-burst like Rengar while saving your Unbreakable shield to point towards the enemy mid-laner or other high-priority skillshot champ. You get to block that Sejuani ult from the sidelines without leaving an opening for your carry to be burst down from another angle; others get the opportunity to go in and engage with CC or whatever while keeping their defensive options open. What's the problem?
: I really like the idea, but I think it requires some thought. Here's why: (Don't get me wrong I do like the item, but there are consequences to implementing) As a main Braum and shen player I am often playing this type of tanks you describe. So I love the idea of feeling more usefull in fights and overall in the game. But what you must consider is how much it adds to the role of tanks. What I mean by this is that a tank is not anymore that wall that gets in the way in teamfights, but instead of that more of a support for basicly every person who will get focussed. The impact is indeed that tanks will get a much greater part to play, nothing wrong with that, but maybe it adds too much. Compare this: Some tanks have abilities in their kit that are specifically aimed at tanking FOR other people, like Braum's shield, and shen's taunt. What this item will do is pretty much give this ability to every tank there is, regardless of their kit. If you don't think this is a problem, remember why deathfiregrasp was removed from the game. It gave pretty much every mage, control or assassin, the ability to nuke down an opponent, essentially buffing the kit of every mage who weren't able to do that without it. It gave burst to a champion that shouldn't have it. Comparing this to the tank item, some tanks will now get added ability to tank FOR other people, which wasn't in their kit. It basicly gives them a partial absorbing Braum shield that cannot be worked around. This is why it might be very riscy to try and implement such an item. Again, I'm not neccesarily against the item, I'm more afraid of it. With balancing numbers and costs and stuff, some pretty balanced item could be achieved, but I don't know if it's a good idea to achieve that item.
Shh, let me {{champion:12}} ult + {{item:3911}} to remove all burst from the game in peace. Maybe I'd actually be able to have an impact in a fight more than once per 10 seconds!
: But in this situation he doesn't want health... I know this might seem weird to say for mundo but despite him scaling well with health you don't want that much health especially if you are trying to itemize against someone with a bork... So all that warmogs does for him is increase zed's auto attack damage and give zed a better burst when he uses the active. And the extra health you get from the ult and passive doesn't help much as it's a heal over time so he can easily out damage your sustain especially when you give him free damage. He needed an item with armour and no health to increase his effective health vs zed... that leaves him with {{item:3026}} {{item:3075}} and {{item:3512}} (as the other ones give mana which mundo can't use)... any one of them could easily replace the warmogs while giving more effective health... And if he is having issues with dying during his ult then a {{item:3026}} is perfect as the ult heal carries on through the stasis so he can heal up very efficiently with it plus it gives MR to help itemize against the ap threats on their team.
If I have 3000 hp, each BOTRK hit takes 240 hp off me (at full hp). If I have 4000, it takes 320. If Mundo has 3000 hp, he regens 90 from his passive. At 4000, he regens 120. If your armour reduction is 50%, 3k hp = 120 hp loss, 4k = 160 hp loss. It's all __proportionally identical__, but _not all of Zed's damage is BotRK damage or his passive_. The increased health is "useless against BOTRK", true, but it forces _more_ damage to be _required_ from BOTRK; it's still countering every non% part of the incoming damage. And health protects against all the non-% magic and true damage as well. Thornmail is practically worthless for fighting autoattackers that are actually dealing damage, and being only 100 armour means that you've blown all that cash on a pathetic 46 extra resistance after penetration.. You can get away with GA (effective health not max health), but ZZ'Rot is giving you 60 armour again _minus 54% for all the penetration_. Do you really think 27.6 armour is going to add any more survivability than 800 hp?
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EDYinnit

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