AlphaBreaK (EUNE)
: MMR is low? How do i repair it?
Win all games and dodge promos
ShacoOrTaco (EUNE)
: Can i flame?
You potato Am I good?
Cefurion (EUW)
: Banned for 14 Days for no Reason.
: Hardfix the game
I do not think that will do hardfix, because they are doing same all the time by nerfing and buffing and it is still the same.
: NEW GAMEMODE FOR 5 MAN PREMADE - Called "Anti-fun, quick, fast, speed, steal game"
>WARNING: ONLY PLAY THIS AS A 5 MAN AND MAKE SURE ALL PLAYERS ARE AWARE OF THE RULES, DO NOT RUIN OTHER PEOPLES GAME. CONSENT IS IMPORTANT PEOPLE Turn 10 PCs on play yourself then.
dino0 (EUW)
: Nope, people would abuse it now, next time before posting an ideia actually think about it, and yes i saw someone of the examples, the ideia its "turd" so flush it and next
Good language
Cypherous (EUW)
: > You can not say that. Maybe it will maybe it will not. Check on internet why we exists. If you exists anything can be possible because you can almost do anything. Oh i'm willing to bet actual money on it never being added, thats how sure i am, i've told you why your system won't work, you refuse to accept it, there isn't much more to discuss, i know it won't be added > They believed word was flat, now they know it is not like that. Yeah but you're talking about people incorrectly believing something due to a lack of evidence, we have evidence that proves this system wouldn't work, so unless you can prove otherwise its a moot point > Why should it be worse? Toxicity for nice % of player base were created because other ruined thier games and they lost LP. If now you do not lose LP, then those players will not be toxic and toxicity will improve by nice % in positive way. Except they won't, people are toxic in normal games where there is no LP on the line, people are toxic in ARAM where there is no LP on the line, are you somehow under the impression that toxicity only exists in ranked because there is a risk of losing LP? Because the evidence is literally there for you to see yourself
>Oh i'm willing to bet actual money on it never being added, thats how sure i am, i've told you why your system won't work, you refuse to accept it, there isn't much more to discuss, i know it won't be added That is different than never or impossible >Yeah but you're talking about people incorrectly believing something due to a lack of evidence same goes here >Except they won't, people are toxic in normal games where there is no LP on the line, people are toxic in ARAM where there is no LP on the line, are you somehow under the impression that toxicity only exists in ranked because there is a risk of losing LP? In non ranked modes are people usually less toxic because they have nothing to lose. Also I were talking about decreasing toxicity in ranked modes, why you bring up other modes?
Cypherous (EUW)
: > I cont your entire base construction is still on in 1st. place Cool but it won't always be, you can't cherrypick ideal scenarios, you have to consider the worst case scenarios first and then go from there, and the worst case scenario is the system encouraging people to perform actions that go against the core of the game, so its an instant no You really seem to struggle with this > Your Carrot and stick prof only say dif. between current hi and low will not change. That is right. But path you made with your donkey is don, if you look that that way. And if your carrot is pointing in the wrong direction your donkey goes in the wrong direction, hence you need any carrots to be pointed in the right place, in this case your LP is only related to winning or losing, it gives your team a very clear singular goal, having a score based system encourages things like teams going to do baron instead of winning the match, or going to take farm instead of defending a tower, and you don't want to reward or encourage poor decision making > But there is point sub effect what is that it will decrease toxicity. Except as i've said it actually won't, ADC's will become more toxic if someone else "steals their kill" or if the support takes some farm accidentally or someone kills a ward they wanted to kill etc, it won't decrease toxicity in the least > Good Your Carrot and stick logic you have there. Did you google it in the moment you saw similar words? No, its an extremely basic concept pretty much every human being should be aware of, its the basis of literally every reward system on the planet, doing chores for pocket money, doing well on a test to get a high grade, eating all your dinner in order to get dessert, a child crying in a store until their parent buys them what they want, you've been exposed to and used this basic concept ever since you were old enough to remember > Your entire defending strategy, you can hold 4v5 with core base under tower, if you are equal as base fact before all even started. And that helps your argument how exactly? are you trying to say that because a team "can" hold something 4v5 its ok for you not to help? lol yeah that isn't going to help you prove this system should be added > I did not say base, but It would has little effect on it too, just to decrease toxicity. We've already covered that it actually won't reduce toxicity, and if your goal is to reduce toxicity then you already failed before you started > If all players gain where is negative change? I just removed toxicity Yeah, except you didn't, you only added to the toxicity as per above, you're trying to encourage behaviour that goes against the design of the game, thats a negative, and when your "gain" doesn't actually exist do you know what that means? it means all you've done is made things worse than they were You refuse to look at the game as a whole and that is why your idea is massively flawed, at the end of the day you're free to ask what you like, but i can guarantee you 100% this system will never see the light of day in league :)
>And if your carrot is pointing in the wrong direction your donkey goes in the wrong direction, hence you need any carrots to be pointed in the right place, in this case your LP is only related to winning or losing, it gives your team a very clear singular goal, having a score based system encourages things like teams going to do baron instead of winning the match, or going to take farm instead of defending a tower, and you don't want to reward or encourage poor decision making You have no point and I did not said that. If you have good score and you finish game you will get your points. If you go farm and increase game timer, then opponent can farm too and decrease your difference they need to full build. If they have full build does not matter if you have 20k more than them because they have same build as you do so they are equal. Also mark system does not work the way you think. If you give opponent enough time he will crash you and you will get much less point than if you decide to end game at some point. >We've already covered that it actually won't reduce toxicity, and if your goal is to reduce toxicity then you already failed before you started You have interesting definition of skill. Most games are won cause of overpower. >You refuse to look at the game as a whole and that is why your idea is massively flawed, at the end of the day you're free to ask what you like, but i can guarantee you 100% this system will never see the light of day in league :) You can not say that. Maybe it will maybe it will not. Check on internet why we exists. If you exists anything can be possible because you can almost do anything. They believed word was flat, now they know it is not like that. >Yeah, except you didn't, you only added to the toxicity as per above, you're trying to encourage behaviour that goes against the design of the game, thats a negative, and when your "gain" doesn't actually exist do you know what that means? it means all you've done is made things worse than they were Why should it be worse? Toxicity for nice % of player base were created because other ruined thier games and they lost LP. If now you do not lose LP, then those players will not be toxic and toxicity will improve by nice % in positive way.
Era Teemo (EUW)
: Looks like you want to rewrite last post (which were answer to you) or sth other? +/- 100 math is example
>But it wont be its fault.. The guy who gave him the spoon and the bucket of chocolate will be the one to blame. For example: We have MMR of PlayerA and PlayerB. Those 2 players are our entire base of players (we have just 2 and this is an example). If we add +100LP or -100LP to both of them, the difference between PlayerA MMR and PlayerB MMR is same as before we changed it. If I can remove toxicity with that concept even by a little of 1%, then is worth doing it.
JustClone (EUNE)
: Son, I really cannot follow your logic. Either huge part of it is lost when you write your thoughts in English, or it is just like that. Anyway, I really cannot understand any of your +/- 100 math, and any of your flame quit etc.. writings. If you can re-write, I will try to read it again. If not, good luck.
Looks like you want to rewrite last post (which were answer to you) or sth other? +/- 100 math is example
Cypherous (EUW)
: > If you farm lane cs you push too. If enemy push and you push, then: 5 pushing your base while you're pushing a lane isn't going to end well for you in the overwhelming vast majority of cases, so yeah not really a valid excuse for your system > I did not describe I deny or agree that link at start and I do not care about that. So you don't care about something that literally proves your system won't have the desired effect? funny that :P Sadly that isn't how things work and you have to consider all the problems your system would add to see if the benefits outweigh the costs, and in this case they don't as your system would encourage negative behaviour and result in an increase of toxicity for each time a support secures a kill or accidentally kills a minion, its just a simple fact > Lets go AFK for 2mins (because is good), let tower dive 2v1 and both die, give enemy team 10k gold lead because I just go team-play and no farm, lest blame jungler when enemy team got 10k lead why he did not grouped (you would lose even if you are grouped, only way is to hold with some men less and someone farm-up). And whats the relevance of this exactly? > I did not talk about highest score but about good score (there I count farm (what is not cs but gold), map control, items you got more, vision, cc based on champ,.. so on). If you do good score and entire team follows you gonna prob win (70%). And the team following you has nothing to do with score, its about making smart plays and taking control of the team, and we already have a system that "scores" you and its called the mastery system, and it doesn't reflect anything of value in regards to skill, just like your score system doesn't reflect skill and you're trying to say we should base a ranking system on it Yeah that isn't going to happen for numerous reasons you seem to want to ignore > Was it? And how you think things gonna improve, if you are not going to change anything? It was rejected because it didn't add anything and would encourage negative behaviour due to it being a carrot on a stick, but you keep ignoring that part because it ruins your argument, you're right that progress requires change, but it also requires positive change not negative change ;)
>5 pushing your base while you're pushing a lane isn't going to end well for you in the overwhelming vast majority of cases, so yeah not really a valid excuse for your system I cont your entire base construction is still on in 1st. place >So you don't care about something that literally proves your system won't have the desired effect? funny that :P Your Carrot and stick prof only say dif. between current hi and low will not change. That is right. But path you made with your donkey is don, if you look that that way. But there is point sub effect what is that it will decrease toxicity. If you promise your teammates reward only if sth happens and they agree(no toxic at all). Then their are no toxic. Congrats. you succeed with removing toxic from 1 game and increase chances you gonna win game, because no one is toxic. Good Your Carrot and stick logic you have there. Did you google it in the moment you saw similar words? >And whats the relevance of this exactly? Your entire defending strategy, you can hold 4v5 with core base under tower, if you are equal as base fact before all even started. >And the team following you has nothing to do with score, its about making smart plays and taking control of the team, and we already have a system that "scores" you and its called the mastery system, and it doesn't reflect anything of value in regards to skill, just like your score system doesn't reflect skill and you're trying to say we should base a ranking system on it Yeah that isn't going to happen for numerous reasons you seem to want to ignore I did not say base, but It would has little effect on it too, just to decrease toxicity. >It was rejected because it didn't add anything and would encourage negative behaviour due to it being a carrot on a stick, but you keep ignoring that part because it ruins your argument, you're right that progress requires change, but it also requires positive change not negative change ;) If all players gain where is negative change? I just removed toxicity
: Not angry, not in the slightest, just there are 100's of these posts everyday and not one can ever back up their claims or suggestion.
Then why you show interest in those posts in 1st. place? Post will down drop id there is no interest, but if there is hi-disagree or hi-agree then post stay.
JustClone (EUNE)
: They are getting punished enough. A single loss is enough. The leaver buster penalty is also enough. "The players" lack both the mental and moral capacity to determine who is guilty and who is not. It is like putting a bucket of chocolate in the hand of a little kid, and tell him to each as much as it wants... OF COURSE THAT KID WILL GET HIMSELF INTO HOSPITAL... But it wont be its fault.. The guy who gave him the spoon and the bucket of chocolate will be the one to blame. This is why riot will never give you this...
>OF COURSE THAT KID WILL GET HIMSELF INTO HOSPITAL... Hospital does not matter here. Point is there is something what can improve game and entire community. > The leaver buster penalty is also enough. You do not get affected, if you quit some games because someone flamed you in lobby. >But it wont be its fault.. The guy who gave him the spoon and the bucket of chocolate will be the one to blame. If all players has +100LP or - 100LP and I can improve game and much decrease toxicity is worth. Because in numbers does not matter if all players has +100LP or -100LP in full view they gained nothing because all gained. >A single loss is enough. Then why are all so negative, no responding for been nice, blame you for not doing good even, if you carry them hard?
: This is the true devil Teemo talk
Cypherous (EUW)
: > At start you gave nature of human history (interesting point what does not matter as your no fact reason). Which you've still yet to prove is incorrect > You gave link and did not express the fact, but just random history copy paste which does not matter much. You only claim it doesn't matter because it disagrees with what you claim to be true, while not yet actually proving its wrong, you do realise you need to provide proof to back up your claims like i did right? > If you play on score you will perform well and after that there would be much higher chances you would win Yeah that isn't how team games work, score doesn't mean you're performing well, you can have the worst score in the game and still be the person who contributed most to the win, you can have the highest score and be the reason we lost, you however seem to think score somehow relates to skill when it doesn't > If you stop farm at some early point, when you did not reach full build, then you will fall behind and started losing your "defending" after because enemy will have 2k more DPS than you. And if your farming let the enemy team push the other 2 lanes all the way to the inhibs you've contributed nothing and infact have only helped your team lose just because you wanted to inflate your score to earn some "points" And i have had this discussion with rioters years ago, the idea has been considered before and it was rejected
>And if your farming let the enemy team push the other 2 lanes all the way to the inhibs you've contributed nothing and infact have only helped your team lose just because you wanted to inflate your score to earn some "points" If you farm lane cs you push too. If enemy push and you push, then: push = push Also tower + 4 players ~ 5 players what you can hold, but if you gave them insane lead or 10k nothing will save you except opponent will. >You only claim it doesn't matter because it disagrees with what you claim to be true, while not yet actually proving its wrong, you do realise you need to provide proof to back up your claims like i did right? I did not describe I deny or agree that link at start and I do not care about that. >Yeah that isn't how team games work, score doesn't mean you're performing well, you can have the worst score in the game and still be the person who contributed most to the win, you can have the highest score and be the reason we lost, you however seem to think score somehow relates to skill when it doesn't Lets go AFK for 2mins (because is good), let tower dive 2v1 and both die, give enemy team 10k gold lead because I just go team-play and no farm, lest blame jungler when enemy team got 10k lead why he did not grouped (you would lose even if you are grouped, only way is to hold with some men less and someone farm-up). I did not talk about highest score but about good score (there I count farm (what is not cs but gold), map control, items you got more, vision, cc based on champ,.. so on). If you do good score and entire team follows you gonna prob win (70%). >And i have had this discussion with rioters years ago, the idea has been considered before and it was rejected Was it? And how you think things gonna improve, if you are not going to change anything?
: > [{quoted}](name=Era Teemo,realm=EUW,application-id=Mpd1UjGe,discussion-id=c4w6q8No,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-21T11:49:45.703+0000) > > That is not correct (most of them do not agree). > > You gave fact that this system will not work based on reason you do not agree with some "your friends". That is not fact. What about you keeping the burden of proof and prove us why it should work "with facts"?
Did I force you into something? No, I did not. Then how can you say burden, if you are reading this in your own will to trash talk some idea. Only responses were No. No are not fast. So I ask to explain why do you think no. And then you came with some random doing of your will and start talking vs me I gave you burden? You came here on own will, dude.
: Your stupid idea also wont work, there's a reason you're posting this on the forum instead of working for them, stop filling the forums with crap.
You made your random no point, did I made you angry, I am so sorry.
: There are researches and results that shows the opposite. You can't say, that it "only removes players after a long long long time or never" without having any evidence.
>AI helps to players? No >There are researches and results that shows the opposite. How can AI which react after 15mins of game affect human whom does not that AI exists? >You can't say, that it "only removes players after a long long long time or never" without having any evidence. I am low on evidences about that, that is right.
: But there is no prove that it really would help. I already quoted a source, saying that it would cause spam of a feature. You can't say that something will happens or will improve the behaviour without doing the research for it. And the AI helps a lot: >The system was intended to have a 0,1% error rate since launch [260, 472], to minimize false positives, and accuracy is ensured through case sampling, performed by Player Support employees [175, 472, 602]. One of these quality checks in the very beginning of this system showed that 1 out of 6000 punishments is undeserved [250]. >Since the introduction of the Instant Feedback System, verbal abuse has dropped by more than 40%, and 91,6% of negative players change their attitude after the first punishment, thanks to fast feedback and Reform Cards, therefore avoiding subsequent penalties [20, 67, 589, 601]. According to Riot, warnings are enough to convince 75% of the players to improve their behaviour, thus avoiding the penalty system altogether [351]. Ranked games experienced a 40% drop in toxicity after the launch of the system [67]. >This is important because the reform rate is very high, compared to traditional systems of manual reviews (which scored a 50% reform rate). Adding evidence, such as chat logs, to the punishment increases the reform rate to 75% [376], thanks to players getting a clear picture of what got them punished. Source with sources: https://en.volu-eu.org/pbkb_general_user_view.php?art=7
AI helps to players? No It only helps to remove players after long long long time or never. So it only helps system by itself.
Cypherous (EUW)
: > Only fact you gave is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrot_and_stick and that fact were copy paste and not self decide. Its the only fact i need when all the evidence lines up with it, i've yet to see you provide any evidence to prove me wrong > That is not fact buy your experience about other games with no facts. Its an experience that lines up with the facts, you're free to ignore it but that doesn't actually change the facts > That is not correct. Then prove it, i mean, i have over 4000 games of experience that back up my claims, but by all means prove me wrong if you can :) > Each game you would do off meta thing they will rise their voices (you are probably in there). Here we go some unnecessary wishes, quit game, blame others,.. And that is around 90% : 10% Yeah that isn't how it works sadly, come back when you actually understand how statistics work
At start you gave nature of human history (interesting point what does not matter as your no fact reason). You gave link and did not express the fact, but just random history copy paste which does not matter much. >Skill based LP gains/losses doesn't work doesn't work is not fact >encourages people to play for scores rather than to win if they are behind by trying not to die If you play on score you will perform well and after that there would be much higher chances you would win >by farming more instead of defending etc If you stop farm at some early point, when you did not reach full build, then you will fall behind and started losing your "defending" after because enemy will have 2k more DPS than you.
: > All players told that in game: "report him" or some nice wishes,.. And after nothing visible happen, they are still angry and that continue to the circle of looping to infinity throw most of the player base. From that follows they want to punish x player. Ofc you want to see the player punished, who is causing you to be tilted. But that is simply not a reason to let it happen that easy. And I don't like the idea of making it depended from the skill level of you. Highly skilled player shouldn't have a more powerful voice. Or other way round - only because of a bad performance of you, your voice shouldn't end in being locked earlier and losing LP more often as a result of it. You're losing LP if you play bad now. That's how the mmr-System works on a long-term. The LP and MMR of you shouldn't be related to your behavior ingame. Therefore are bans and restriction, which is more effective and less tilting for the players. And tilt ends up in being toxic. With the links from the sources I've tried to show you, that there are many, many different things that you have to keep in mind and that you are not able to predict the affect of a change or system by just thinking about it. There are so many unexpected effects that could occur and therefore they did the heavy research for the IFS. Too prevent having an unfair system and to include any result of the scientific research, resulting in a effective and fair system of avoiding toxic behaviour. Whispered {{summoner:14}}
You get each game positive +0.1 NUMBER_LIMIT_LOST, also you do not have to reward or punish anyone. But still if you get 0.1 NUMBER_LIMIT_LOST per game and lose 0.01 x 3 NUMBER_LIMIT_LOST per game you are still in gain >With the links from the sources I've tried to show you, that there are many, many different things that you have to keep in mind and that you are not able to predict the affect of a change or system by just thinking about it. There are so many unexpected effects that could occur and therefore they did the heavy research for the IFS. Too prevent having an unfair system and to include any result of the scientific research, resulting in a effective and fair system of avoiding toxic behaviour. Ty for extra content
Mcgalakar (EUNE)
: >If 2 players give you -2x2LP = -4LP >Then you can give them -2LP to both of the so is -4LP to them It looks like this when you take only 2 LP, but let's go to what you wrote in your previous post about losing 10 LP. Player A and Player B each takes 10 LP from Player C. The game was won, and he got 18 LP. In the end, player who contributed to winning ended with -4 LP. Awesome! On the other hand, he can take only 10 LP from each of them. So Player A end score is 18 - 10 = 8 LP, and Player B 18 - 10 = 8 LP. In short, the Player C, who did nothing wrong (except of meeting two trolls), will lose LP for winning the game (what could lead to him hitting the 0 LP and being on the verge of demoting), when the other two still got their LP. The situation will be even worse in the case of FlexQ (you could for a win lose 14 LP, and for a lost game -46 LP). It will only make the toxicity skyrocket. >Most of player will use that to punish others and they will feel better after punishing other player by them self. Egoistic. The way of blaming your own mistakes during game over someone else, to make yourself fell better. It is the same as popping a kid balloon because one had a bad day. >Would you not feel batter if you could punish someone who quit game at 3mins? I do not feel bad when they quit the game, so there is no reason for me to seek vendetta. Also I know that they will get their punishment (leaver buster and LP loss even in case where we won), so I am contented with that.
You failed to read all what I wrote: >Player A lose default 18LP, Player 2,3,4,7 takes away 10LP, because they think he played bad and deserve "punishment". Player 1,5,6,9, 8 gives 12LP, because they think he played good and deserve reward. I wrote 4 players took 10LP as sum (will fix that to 8LP - 2LP each) And 5 players gives 12LP as sum (will fix that to 10LP - 2LP each)
: You don't have to write tons of text for the IFS (Instant Feedback System) because it already exists. It's kind of an artificial intelligence, scanning the players behavior after a report, not necessary how many reports he get or what text is in it.
That is not point. Point is player can "punish" / "reward" others direct by them self based on their logic. What will help AI, which players did not even know to exists, to feel better after someone quit game in 3mins?
JustClone (EUNE)
: Man what makes you think, that you have the competence to determine if someone should be punished? (Because simply your post suggest otherwise...)
Is that smurf account? Tell me what you do when in next x games your 2 random teammates quit game at 3min. You do not like to "punish" them by taking some extra LP from them? Also that will decide each player for them self. I have nothing to do here.
: > A pop up informing a player of a punishment being dealt to a reported offender might appear. It was initially set to be seen only by the player whose report triggered the punishment [46, 68, 127], but it has been changed since then, and doesn’t even appear every time action has been taken [618]. Riot stated that tuning it to pop more often would have been seen akin to spamming, since about 20% of the community wasn’t interested in those pop ups [279], and the would have been worse after the inclusion of Chat and Ranked Restrictions [127], but this last part of the plan was never implemented. So it could also end in more spam and unfair use of the system.
>no 15min waiting and then nothing happens Did not check entire history of what happened, you are right in that situation.
: But where is the proof, that it would positively affect the players behavior? It also could demotivate them after having one bad and unfair experience with it. Nice that the player, who is abusing the system, would be blocked for the rating in the future but that won't help the player directly affected by the one unfair "report" he get from him before he gets blocked. That's the problem with a game where you meet someone once and after that probably never again. You are not directly affected by the improvement. With this system, you would kinda give the toxic players more power or the feeling of having more power and that could end in a more toxic environment. The current system is highly sensitive calibrated and really well tested to improve the players behavior in an effective and truly long-lasting way. It has a looong history of testing, research and improvement behind it so I believe in its benefit.
For example: Player 1: want to take away from Player 3 and enemy team asked him to take away from player 6,7 (they RQ in 3mins of game) Player 6, 7 got D- NUMBER_LIMIT_LOST Mark ... Punish ... Rewars [ s+ ] ... [ -0.5 ] ... [ -0.01 ] [ s ] ... [ -0.45 ] ... [ -0.02 ] [ s- ] ... [ -0.4 ] ... [ -0.03 ] and so on [ d- ] ...[-0.01] ... [-0.5] so player 1 punish player 6,7. Those 2 players lose each -2LP extra. Player 1 NUMBER_LIMIT_LOST increase by -0.01 x 2. When NUMBER_LIMIT_LOST become 0 you get locked from punish and reward for next x games and each game you lose extra -2LP. Each game while you did not use that option NUMBER_LIMIT_LOST increase by 0.1, also it increase if you are blocked. And after x games passed you are unlocked again. >But where is the proof, that it would positively affect the players behavior? All players told that in game: "report him" or some nice wishes,.. And after nothing visible happen, they are still angry and that continue to the circle of looping to infinity throw most of the player base. From that follows they want to punish x player.
: Sorry but your way of thinking about it is really short-term and not realistic. You have to do some heavy research and testing before setting up such a system. There are more obstacles as you might think now. I recommend you to read something about the IFS here: https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/207489286-Instant-Feedback-System-FAQ- and here: https://en.volu-eu.org/pbkb_general_user_view.php?art=7 to get a impression of how such a system has to work and should work. Whispered {{summoner:14}}
>15min after game finished That is long time also you do not necessary get informed (usually you do not), that anything happened. With rewarding / punishing by player self will affect that direct (no 15min waiting and then nothing happens). Your told IFS bans or restrict players, that new idea will affect MMR and will affect toxicity much more than as told IFS.
: It's sad you can't see how bone idle your suggestion is, there is a reason no one agree's.
>It's sad you can't see how bone idle your suggestion is, there is a reason no one agree's. That is not correct (most of them do not agree). You gave fact that this system will not work based on reason you do not agree with some "your friends". That is not fact.
Mcgalakar (EUNE)
: That would lead to abuse. Think about the situation. SoloQ, 2-man premade. One of them asks jungler for blue. Jungler says no (no matter the reason), then the one asked goes with argument "if you don't give me a blue, me and my premade make you lost LP." How something like this would lead to lowering the toxicity? Unless you believe that people would not abuse it. But if people are so good, why do they flame in the first place? {{sticker:sg-lux-2}} In short it would make the toxicity level way higher than right now. After all, no one wants to be threatened with losing LP points that he worked hard to earn. In this way, giving extra LP to get players (so rewarding, not punishing), seems a way better idea, but it will still be easily abused.
>That would lead to abuse. Think about the situation. SoloQ, 2-man premade. One of them asks jungler for blue. Jungler says no (no matter the reason), then the one asked goes with argument "if you don't give me a blue, me and my premade make you lost LP." How something like this would lead to lowering the toxicity? Player A and player B has same power. If 2 players give you -2x2LP = -4LP Then you can give them -2LP to both of the so is -4LP to them -4LP = -4LP (same number as they abuse power of that vs you you abused same number power to them) Most of player will use that to punish others and they will feel better after punishing other player by them self. Would you not feel batter if you could punish someone who quit game at 3mins? >In this way, giving extra LP to get players (so rewarding, not punishing), seems a way better idea, but it will still be easily abused. Do not agree, because as sub-thread in will be LIMITE_NUMBER. So if you use that to much you will not be able to reward / punish for some games and you will lose 2LP per game until this LIMIT_NUMBER is not fixed.
: But that sound more like a small and really different form of the tribunal. And the tribunal isn't existing anymore for a good reason - The Instant Feedback System is working well. Why should Riot add another instance, costing many many resources and time, when the existing system is fine? Whispered {{summoner:14}}
That system could be written and established fast. So I do not agree that they would waste resources. Also if game become known for no toxic game, then it will increase player base x2 for 12M to 24M, more skins sold and then more money for Riot (I do not think that is waste of resources).
: Even if the player might think that they are honest, the chance of a wrong decision is very high. Players are not objective, especially after loosing a game, even if they try to be. It may isn't their fault but the problem of a system, influenced by subjective factors, still exists.
It will affected all players behavior in positive way. If I can punish or reward others with LP a loooooooooooooot players would be less negative in the next games.
Ratatouka (EUW)
: believe it or not, league players are smart. they will find a way to abuse your system. for example, going as 5 premade in flex, and whether you lose or win, you reward every teammate, that way every win will be like +40 lp and every lose is -5 lp. there is also going as 3 premade, and pushing the 2 non-premades just to make their life worse. that way even if you win, your 2 non-premades gain 10lp and in some cases they can even lose lp for winning. there is no such thing as 'self decision' when trying to abuse systems. check na ranked system and you'll understand. at the start of the season gold players reached masters. players are just that good at cheating.
If they do not get all S+, they will run out of SELF_PUNISH_LIMIT_NUMBER and when that number is out (player came to the limit), he will unable to do so and will gain some negative LP. During that time SELF_PUNISH_LIMIT_NUMBER will decrease and after that player will not lose extra LP and he / she could reward / punish again. You lose and win around 20 LP after some games. Also you could not give and drain so much LP.
: But I don't really see the benefit of it, having the IFS. The risk of being influenced by the subjectivity is too high and not needed, if you use a system that analyses the players behavior objectively after a report like the IFS does it. Whispered {{summoner:14}}
That would decrease even more and it would be a lot faster than writing tons of text on your as told IFS.
Cypherous (EUW)
: > You used self made fact: "It doesn't work", what is not explanation in full. I mean you can deny human history all you want :P https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrot_and_stick > We are where we are, 90% toxic 10% not. The numbers arne't actually anywhere near that bad, otherwise i would be literally the only non-toxic person in every single one of my matches, which isn't the case so your numbers are obviously inaccurate > With rid of toxic I had in mind to decrease number 90% : 10% to 20% : 80%. Right, but its impossible to get rid of toxicity, straight up impossible > That is your made fact, which were created in 0.0001sec and with no valid reason. It is like you refuse all changes, which are offered in the plate. No its based on about 2 decades worth of personal gaming experience along with multiple tests in multiple other games and the numerous examples of the above mentioned carrot on a stick throughout the the entire of human history, i mean if you want to claim that its "made up" then you're entitled to that opinion, but remember that being entitled to your opinion doesn't make it correct :P
Only fact you gave is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrot_and_stick and that fact were copy paste and not self decide. >No its based on about 2 decades worth of personal gaming experience along with multiple tests in multiple other games and the numerous examples of the above mentioned carrot on a stick throughout the the entire of human history, i mean if you want to claim that its "made up" then you're entitled to that opinion, but remember that being entitled to your opinion doesn't make it correct :P That is not fact buy your experience about other games with no facts. >The numbers arne't actually anywhere near that bad, otherwise i would be literally the only non-toxic person in every single one of my matches, which isn't the case so your numbers are obviously inaccurate That is not correct. Each game you would do off meta thing they will rise their voices (you are probably in there). Here we go some unnecessary wishes, quit game, blame others,.. And that is around 90% : 10%
: Won't work.
: You can't build up a system, only relating to the direct opinion of the players from a game. There are too many different factors that would make it impossible for the system to be fair. It is normal to play bad sometimes and it is normal to be tilted as a reaction of it. The LP you are going to loose for games you play bad, or games you play bad 'cause you're tilted, should be a fair punishment, especially looking for a long-term effect. A system, depended from the players you're playing with, would be influenced by many other factors like the champions he played (a Teemo, even a good one, would have a higher chance of being punished) as well as his behavior in chat or in the game in general. And for behavior-stuff, we have the IFS and not the opinion from the own team. Good idea in approach, looking for a fair system improving the players behavior or performance, it isn't fair and effective enough. Greetings, Whispered{{summoner:14}}
Point of including that is not to win or lose more, but to decrease toxicity after and improve game experience, what it will be affected after. Player decide if player decide to be punished or rewarded. Also you would be blocked by abusing that to much and it is possible to do so.
Ratatouka (EUW)
: if you punish players who are not iinting the same way as if they were inting, they'd be like 'if i'm treated like an inters then might as well int'. and about the toxicity, people would use the punishment as a new form of flame/threatning. i mean if you play with premade you're guaranteed to punish someone even if he didn't int or have a bad game. as i said, your idea is good, the problem is the players are not honest and will abuse it.
I were specific and you did not understand me. I said you punish or reward game-mates (reason if you are toxic or int does not matter). It is players self decision what he /she will do. >Point of that is to decrease toxicity from 90% : 10% to 50% : 50%. I am just saying that decrease toxicity.
Ratatouka (EUW)
: playing bad happens to everyone, we all have bad games now and then, inting players should lose more, not anyone who played bad. but people who have a bad game will just be called inters and lose more lp just because of a bad game. which will actually create more tilted people and inters.
Point of that is to decrease toxicity from 90% : 10% to 50% : 50%.
Ratatouka (EUW)
: it would have been a good idea but it would get abused just like you said..
If it get enough support, it can go live. I think I lot of players will be less toxic, negative if they could took LP from someone they think he played bad. I think that I would feel better too. Also there would be sub system which would block most of abusing of that. For example: You took LP from others in short time to many times and not valid situations (you took away from S+, S, S-), then you are unable to use that for some next games. Each game you play and do not take then your points restore.
Cypherous (EUW)
: > Explain reason in full, not only in some self made fact. Already did > That is not correct. Also no one tested that yet. Sure it has, the mastery system already encourages it by rewarding people with score related mastery grades, it also doesn't "need" to be tested because thats just simple human nature, the "carrot on a stick" is a time tested fact like it or not > 2) So if we continue that mythology over all players, then is possible to get rid of toxicity forever (90% = toxic, 10% not). Because a lot of players rage because others ruin their LP by their plays. Its impossible to get rid of toxicity it will always exist > 5) If with 1 simple change I can do that, then is worth to do it and make changes. Except your entire system is built on the core of a flawed idea that straight up doesn't work :P
>Already did You used self made fact: "It doesn't work", what is not explanation in full. >Sure it has, the mastery system already encourages it by rewarding people with score related mastery grades, it also doesn't "need" to be tested because thats just simple human nature, the "carrot on a stick" is a time tested fact like it or not We are where we are, 90% toxic 10% not. >Its impossible to get rid of toxicity it will always exist With rid of toxic I had in mind to decrease number 90% : 10% to 20% : 80%. >Except your entire system is built on the core of a flawed idea that straight up doesn't work :P That is your made fact, which were created in 0.0001sec and with no valid reason. It is like you refuse all changes, which are offered in the plate.
Mcgalakar (EUNE)
: I can already see it: he had a bad score, 14-days ban; support got my kill - 14-days ban; he didn't listen to what I'm saying - 14-days ban; etc. Of course each time the official reason would be toxicity (knowing that there is no chances to make anyone check it).
I were not talking about that much power. You could punish them by losing more LP. For example: Player A lose default 18LP, Player 2,3,4,7 takes away 8LP (as sum), because they think he played bad and deserve "punishment". Player 1,5,6,9, 8 gives 10LP (as sum), because they think he played good and deserve reward. So: -18LP - 8LP (punish) + 10LP (reward) = -16 LP So that player lose 16LP and not 18
Cypherous (EUW)
: Skill based LP gains/losses doesn't work and just encourages people to play for scores rather than to win if they are behind by trying not to die or by farming more instead of defending etc So yeah won't happen
> Skill based LP gains/losses doesn't work Explain reason in full, not only in some self made fact. >encourages people to play for scores rather than to win That is not correct. Also no one tested that yet. You made that outcome based in your head and that is fast. This need to be tested. Also if you play for good score it will affect game that you probably going to win, because you will affect the game in positive way for yourself and no in other. For good score counts how much dmg you give to opponent, damage taken, etc. So your fair of not grouping and defending goes away. >they are behind by trying not to die or by farming more instead of defending etc Trying defend 1v5 is not option. Also that will affect game in that way: 1) Person A: If I lose nothing when my entire team quit game at 5mins and I still try and then maybe manage to get S+ then I lose nothing (I get 1 rage point = 1 win game) 2) So if we continue that mythology over all players, then is possible to get rid of toxicity forever (90% = toxic, 10% not). Because a lot of players rage because others ruin their LP by their plays. 3) With that we remove core reason why players leaving game. 4) Then as sub affect Riot make more money. 5) If with 1 simple change I can do that, then is worth to do it and make changes.
Rioter Comments
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Rioter Comments
HoRiZoN RPG (EUNE)
: New Reason for report
if both teams completely agreed there is nothing you can do
Rioter Comments
moonboi (EUNE)
: I GOT PERMAMENTLY BANNED
Nope, you had chances not to be toxic and you wasted it
: please just remove gangplank
Lets remove all champs there is no point of them xd
: TFT is surprisingly toxic
Just ignore chat. They will stop write to them self.
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Era Teemo

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