: ill break the responses down by number for you. 1 - Every time i reset rank or smurf i get back to my skill level. If a plat player cannot get back to plat, then they got carried, took a break, had their main champ reworked, or some other specific reason. I dont know anyone who is hardstuck on 1 account and climbing on another. This is why i asked you to point out the example. You said the ladder is broken. not me. 2 - BUT you said you have played thousands of normal games. meaning you should have some development as a player, even if its not as beneficial as ranked experience. The fact that 6 years has passed and you have spun your wheels shows either you are not as good player as you think, or you have peaked. Yes some people peak in silver with 15k ranked games. There are hardcore grinders out there that never improve. Some people cannot accept being average because they think they are worth more than they are. 3 - If your rank/lack of progress doesnt bother you, why did you make a critique of what you call a 'BROKEN' system? This is a TEAM game, it has 1 objective. If you cannot complete the objective you lose. Im not going over all this again. And the Toxicity comes from the psychological blindspots of people not recognising their own mistakes, shortcomings, and failure to grasp the deeper strategy of the game. 4- Yes we all wanted this, but again there is no promised land where it just magically works. It has problems because some roles like MID JG get disproportionate demand. Autofill kills games in higher elos because of the dominance of pro level 1 tricks vs filled players in lane leads to snowballing, yes at challenger people 0/5 lanes.
> 1 - Every time i reset rank or smurf i get back to my skill level. If a plat player cannot get back to plat, then they got carried, took a break, had their main champ reworked, or some other specific reason. > I dont know anyone who is hardstuck on 1 account and climbing on another. > > This is why i asked you to point out the example. You said the ladder is broken. not me. It has been mentioned several times that it's easier to climb with a fresh mmr than an old one. You said it yourself how much harder it is to boost a very old account than a newer one. Mine for example was made in the end of S1. > 2 - BUT you said you have played thousands of normal games. meaning you should have some development as a player, even if its not as beneficial as ranked experience. The fact that 6 years has passed and you have spun your wheels shows either you are not as good player as you think, or you have peaked. Yes some people peak in silver with 15k ranked games. There are hardcore grinders out there that never improve. > Some people cannot accept being average because they think they are worth more than they are. Normally I wouldn't even reply to this statement as it is an Ego bait. But meh I'll take it since you seem to give a lot of relevance to this in regard to the weight of my arguments. I hit at least the equivalent to diamond tier in every game I invest myself in. i.e. Overwatch, heroes of the storm, Hearthstone, Dragon Ball fighterZ, Smite and I do this very quickly as I personally get bored quite quickly and I need to switch around as much as possible. However in League I can't do the same thing on the same time frame, as well as having to play the same few champions repeatedly make it hard for me to stick around. Hence why I haven't played for 6 years straight I've always done on and off. In fact I haven't played around 4 seasons of the game entirely. > If a plat player cannot get back to plat, then they got carried, **took a break** Which as you mention yourself might factor in on why I haven't climbed. > 3 - If your rank/lack of progress doesnt bother you, why did you make a critique of what you call a 'BROKEN' system? > > This is a TEAM game, it has 1 objective. If you cannot complete the objective you lose. Im not going over all this again. > > And the Toxicity comes from the psychological blindspots of people not recognising their own mistakes, shortcomings, and failure to grasp the deeper strategy of the game. Because it is a broken system. It's an observation. It doesn't matter to me because I don't live of league of legends. I have tons of other competitive games to play. It has nothing to do with me being "angry" at my elo. That's laughable and I haven't anything that hints towards that. That's your own bias. The game has many objectives that help towards a final goal. All of which require 5 people to coordinate and complete those objectives to help reach that final goal. In fact drake reworks have enforced team oriented gameplay even further. Making even more of a reason for people to blame each other. That's a shallow observation. Clearly disregards most of the human elements in competitive gaming. You can easily condition people to do what you want them to, anyone with a degree in psychology will tell you this, including myself. Reworking the system would help miles in this I assure you. Yes there are people who cannot recognize their own short comings. Though I find it cutely naive that you'd think that's the reason why people are toxic. If this was so then any and every competitive game in existence would be just as toxic as Solo/duo league of legends. Which is untrue. > > This is ALREADY IN PLACE > > This is exactly how the promotional series works. > You get 100lp in a division and play a series of games which BANKS UP a demotion shield for you. Ah yes, the promotion series. Yet another colossal waste of time in ranked climbing. Any other competitive game you reach X rating you get promoted. But no, not league of legends, you need to do promotion series here. Not only to move up tiers but also to move up divisions. Considering that we have 4 divisions there for 4 promotion each division (with luck) takes on average 2 hours per promotion series, needing an extra hour for the tier promotion as it's 3 of 5 instead of 2 of 3. That's roughly a minimum of 9 games wasted on promotion series, let alone the amount of games you need if you fail those series for whatever reason. No it's not already in place. It's just a band aid for a already flawed system.
: Its a TEAM game. The TEAM has to win. Why are you asking to be rated as an individual?? You are literally asking to rework the game in a flawed manner (which i have explained very clearly why) because you think you are special or something. You have bad games too bro. You go 0/12 and everyone gets mad at you, the same as how you get mad at them. You are ALL the same skill level, even though you have convinced yourself you don't belong in silver. Bad news for you. You are silver. After 6 years and thousands of games, your skill is bang in the middle AVERAGE. If you dont like that, learn to improve. The ranked system WORKS. Please stop saying its broken. In fact give me ONE example of a pro player who is stuck in low elo because of his broken MMR, coin flip teams, inters afks etc PLEASE dont waste my time saying its broken if you havent got one piece of evidence to show that the game cannot seperate out skilled players from the ranks. BRONZE players are better than IRON SILVER are better than BRONZE GOLD are better than SILVER PLAT are better than GOLD.... etc AGREED?? NO? It demonstrably does its job at grading players skill and placing them in match ups of roughly equal ability. ITS NOT BROKEN.
> In fact give me ONE example of a pro player who is stuck in low elo because of his broken MMR, coin flip teams, inters afks etc Notice how the only example you give me of players not stuck in elo. Are of either** A. Boosters or B. Pro players.** Are you going to tell me there aren't Platinum level players stuck in silver? or Gold players stuck in silver? According to your logic, ranks between silver and platinum are then meaningless. As unless you start playing text book diamond or higher mode. You're not going to climb in weeks time. > Bad news for you. > > You are silver. After 6 years and thousands of games, your skill is bang in the middle AVERAGE. Ah yes. I'm silver there for nothing I say has any weight. You know it almost sound like I've been playing every day for 6 years with thousands of ranked games. I honestly don't think all my ranked games amount to 1000 even. I don't know if you can check my history. But last season I climbed quite quickly to gold in solo then I stopped playing Solo in Gold and started to duo with friends, some of which aren't really any good. Because hey you know why? My patience just runs out and I feel no stimulus for climbing competitively any further. Going from Silver to Gold in league is tiring. I don't find interest in hard carrying my team mates and it takes too much time to do so. I don't find interest in playing the same god damn champion for hours, days and weeks just for the sake of having a fancier helmet around my avatar. > You are ALL the same skill level, even though you have convinced yourself you don't belong in silver. When will you realize I'm not ranting about my rank? Do you honestly think I give a damn about being silver? Not once in my arguments did I mention I was unfairly in silver and the only time I mention my rank is when you use it to refute what I'm saying. **I KNOW** I can climb the ranks and it's possible for me if I learn how to do it more efficiently. **I KNOW** That I am currently in silver because of this and it doesn't bother me. My point is that this system is **GARBAGE** takes too much ** TIME** is **OUT DATED** and is the highly responsible for the current absurd amount of **TOXICITY** in solo/duo. > You are literally asking to rework the game in a flawed manner In S2 I suggested a more organized champion select by having people choose their roles before queueing. The answers I got was "That's a stupid idea, because it's enforcing the meta", "Horrible idea it will break the game, no way the queue times will work that way". Mostly words of high elo players as well. Few years later, it exists and *gasp* it works? So mark my words and I hope you remember. Because the same is gonna happen to MMR. I understand your resistance to change I'd expect nothing else from a veteran player. I've also refuted the "flaws" you placed on my suggestion which you chose to ignore.
: Even if they could track ALL the metrics you think are necessary, the entire premise is flawed. You cannot say that anything you did was DEFINITELY useful just from numbers and stats... there is no thing you can ever do other than kill the nexus that results in a win. Like i have said here before, stats are facts within themselves. They do not define your skill. I can heal people who are low hp but backing. I can spam wards in fountain. I can auto people who are 100% guaranteed kill just for an assist or kill steal. I can ignite the wrong person in a teamfight like a support tank with full HP. I can miss my flash over a wall. I can ult the wrong target but still hit them, i can focus the tank in a teamfight. I can hit bottom tower when my team is fighting 4v5 in baron pit. I can literally %%%% around and get all of the stats the game wants. But none of it will contribute to a win. If my team loses... i had 3 kills, 0 deaths.... 15 assists... 200 wards placed... 2000 turret damage, i healed 5000 hp, i shielded 20k, etc etc I could troll my team and make them lose and still have GREAT looking stats on paper In reality you can get dumped on for 20 mins. But when it comes to the late game, that baron steal, that 5 man ult, that 80 second death timer for the enemy team... that was all the support who was 1/15/10 but landed the sickest 5 man wombo at the clutch moment. A free 80 seconds with baron and 5 people to race base is GG. The game is about timing, some champs are early, some mid, some late. A skilled player knows this, and they sometimes have to lose the early game and wait for late. Some people think ah man its 15 mins and were 20 kills down FFFFFFFFFFFFF!!!! You said you play card games, well what if you take 15 hp of someone with low mana cards, but late game he 1 shots you with a high mana combo? Do you deserve to lose less rank because you did more damage than another player who did only 3pts of damage with his late game deck? You are judging league like its all about factoring in all the little things you did. Its like me saying to my boss,,,, yeah i didnt sell any thing today... BUT i cleaned the windows and i took the rubbish out, and my shoes are shinier than most other peoples... SO WHAT?? You are in the game to win, forget the dumb shit like ward score, ally testicle shielding, damage to scuttle crabs.... The only thing that matters in this game is killing the Nexus. You are there to figure out how to blow that thing up, and do it quickly and efficiently before they do the same to you. What you pick and how you use it, is your choice. Like making a deck. Your job is to kill the other player, it doesnt matter how much swag you do it with. Just use a deck that works or find another strat.
> You said you play card games, well what if you take 15 hp of someone with low mana cards, but late game he 1 shots you with a high mana combo? > > Do you deserve to lose less rank because you did more damage than another player who did only 3pts of damage with his late game deck? Of course not. That just means I failed to finish him when I was at my strongest. Which is in the early game - assuming I'm using early game deck -. Regardless you're missing the point. You can't compare a card game which is 1 vs 1 to a team game. You're also creating a straw man out of this, the subject is a lot more complex than it seems. You clearly point out ways to exploit the system as some sort of argument to reject it's existence. But the reality is even if what you say is possible in theory. That's not what people will do. And situations like stealing baron in a clutch moment with a shut down character though it might win you the game, it still shouldn't deny all the mistakes you've done before that moment, as for all we know that steal was a lucky fluke and certainly does not reflect your personal skill at all. That's the classic "only results matter" mind set. And that's not competitive and is certainly not in favor of sportsmanship. Not everyone is looking to exploit the games flaws for victory - or a clear stats paper at the end of the match. Most people want to play the game properly and be recognized for what they've done, that's the beauty of being competitive. Obviously in beginning the system might not be as accurate as we would like, however every thing can be refined. And to be honest a lot of the metrics people can get from games today I thought unthinkable in the past. Why would you think an accurate system impossible in the future?
: The game is toxic because people dont recognise that its about their skill, and not their teams. Sure people troll, but you are always matched with people of your own skill level, as long as you are not the troll or feeder the enemy team has more chances (5 randomly selected people) for their to be a troll than your team (4 remaining randomly selected). This is why even in troll off seasons good players still will come out on top. Playing more games cancels out the troll games, because you will get free wins from enemy trolls too,
> The game is toxic because people dont recognise that its about their skill, and not their teams. This is as wrong as saying "it's only about their teams". It's not just about our skill as well as it's not just about our teams. It's a 5 vs 5 game. And one of those 5 is you. You play a role in it and just like the rest of your team you are also held responsible for the out come of the match. But in no way does this mean you are the only one responsible for your loss, everyone's individual responsibility is accountable for the result of the match. It's a shared responsibility and as much as you want to deny it, this is not a matter of opinion. It's a fact. That's how team games work. That's also why people get angry. Because of that individual responsibility not being taken into account. No one. NO ONE in the world. Likes to be punished for someone else bad behavior, specially if this individual is a random stranger. And unfortunately the tribunal punishes the loud players - angry at the trolls and feeders - and less the trolls and feeders themselves. Though words may tilt people - depending on who is on the receiving end - in the end the loss always boils down to ones actions. And those go unpunished for most of the time. > Playing more games cancels out the troll games, because you will get free wins from enemy trolls too That might be true if were talking about a big number of games. But, let's be honest, with the amount of alternatives people have for gaming. Do you really think people will be bothered to play that many games with a competitive mindset just to move up a single league? When does one cross the line where we're no longer playing because we like competitive league but just playing to climb in the most numb possible way? I question this because I don't have this feeling in other competitive games. For example, in Dragon Ball FighterZ - I don't know if I can name other games here if not sorry, just tell me and I'll edit it out - I'm pretty high in the rankings, yet I really don't play it with just the intention to climb. I do it for the thrill and adrenaline of playing the game competitively, climbing is a bonus and more of a mark that tells me "here you'll fight even stronger people". In league, even when I win against enemy trolls, the victory tastes like nothing to me. Because we didn't earn it, it was just another step I'm climbing at the cost of a broken system.
: Highest I've ever been is Diamond 2 yet I can easily hit a 95% winrate all the way up to gold and also easily hit an 80% winrate from gold through to mid platinum it's not hard because I'm just that much better than those players. If you belong in gold and you are in silver you should easily hit a 60% winrate. If you're not, then you don't belong there buddy and given the fact that you've spent 7 seasons in a row in silver I'd say you are where you belong. See the funny thing is it's always low elo players who think they belong above where they are that complain the most about matchmaking. Maybe you're just not good enough but who am I to say that ofc you're far better than everyone else in your games. Mastery is a horrible system for judging the skill level of a player. You want MMR to judge you based on your skills what do you judge on. Ultimately the only thing that matters in the end is what you did to win the game. What if you spent a game splitpushing and died because of it many times but got turrets and your team was able to win teamfights because of it or get Baron because of it. None of these things are measured with the mastery system. Ultimately as I said before these posts from players like you are just a way of you trying to subvert the system so that you can climb without having to improve at the game. You've spent 6 years in silver without improving. You wanna talk about your great knowledge of the matchmaking system how about you actually improve and climb to diamond before you talk as if you're an expert. As I said it's always the low elo players who complain about this because they are upset about their own inability to improve.
> given the fact that you've spent 7 seasons in a row in silver I'd say you are where you belong. Given the fact that most of my games are normal games. And given the fact that I've only played for 3 seasons on and off. I can tell as a fact that you are wrong. > See the funny thing is it's always low elo players who think they belong above where they are I really don't understand the condescending tone. Did I offend you somehow? Or is being "low elo" reason enough to refute my statements. You know what's also funny? Those who are the most resistant to change are usually high elo players. And I'm guilty of the same habit on other games where I am more competitive. When you spend time studying the tricks to climb up and get intimately familiar with the gimmicks that makes you the good player that you are. It's always a pain in the butt when things change radically and the good old tactics don't work anymore. Whose only input to a problem is "git gud". I know your type. What you don't seem to understand is while you're okay with exploiting the system some people choose not to. That's not the game I'm playing. I want to play League of legends not League of carries. Sometimes you need to look at things with fresh eyes to understand their flaws and this doesn't apply just to games but also real life. I've worked in tons of places where the older people who worked there for a longer time always had trouble dealing with suggestions for change. > Ultimately as I said before these posts from players like you are just a way of you trying to subvert the system so that you can climb without having to improve at the game. And yet here we are. The most toxic game mode in league of legends is Solo/Duo I've played over 4k normal games never have I experienced so much hate for one another. 10 years later were on S10 league of legends is still as toxic as it was on S2. But clearly the tribunal is doing it's job. Yet no one ever asks why Solo/duo is so toxic in comparison to other modes? Why people troll or grief? Why tilting is so common? You could easily condition people to be less toxic. By creating a system that rewards a certain behavior and punishes others without making it obvious - i.e. the tribunal. What I'm telling you isn't "OMG I CANT CLIMB OP LADDER" I'm telling you that a lot of the problems league has is because the system itself promotes those problems. 75% of punishments on toxic players on LoL are stemmed from griefing at what the toxicity of MMR has created. Careless players who can't be bothered to climb but still play Ranked, Smurfs and those who react to them. And then riot expects people to have the virtue of patience and superb emotional control. Even teens of all people, who are clearly part of the community and surely have the emotional management skills to deal with toxicity. - sarcasm- This could easily be avoided by removing the "I lost because of my team" from the equation. How do you do that? Well add in personal performance. As for "Is it possible to get accurate metrics?" I'm sure it is. Surely they have or can develop the resources to make it possible.
: I would easily get 85% win rate or higher climbing on new accounts. And im nowhere near challenger. The fact is you are expected to win more games the bigger the skill gap. You are misunderstanding Riots system (which is similar to every match making system used in competitive games) if you think they are forcing your win rate down. They are not, your rating increases as you win. Meaning the players get better. As the players get better, the gap in their skill and yours diminishes, and over enough games your win rate ends up as 50%. As long as your win rate is 51% you will climb up in rank. There is a common insult you hear all the time especially in higher ranks where people play more games. "wow this guy on our D4 team is 1000 games and only 51% win rate, how hardstuck lol" Guess what? If you had 53% win rate with 1000 games... you would be GM/challenger. You would have 60 clean LP wins over your base division. People in this community dont always follow the maths, which leads people to wrong conclusions about skill and misunderstanding the system. Your ideas of measuring support stats dont work. Sona has auras, so she gets assists REALLY easily. W can tag the whole team, so all kills feed her assists. Janna can shield 1 person, but if that 1 player doesn't get the kill, then no assist. Some supports have massive damage (zyra, brand, xerath, vel) others have barely none. (Lulu, Braum, Rakkan). Some supports can contest and clear wards due to their CC and catch potential, other supports cannot safely scout and clear, so they are better off not face checking bushes or scouting river since clearing wards without help is a death sentence. I barely ever get pinks as sona. I cannot protect them, i cannot clear any wards placed in their site without being chased away. They take up gold i need, because i need items more than most supports. There are so many ways in which comparing these numbers between champions just falls apart. And again the system is not broken, you just need to get better if you want to climb. Thats literally it. The ladder works, get better, win more, climb.
> I barely ever get pinks as sona. I cannot protect them, i cannot clear any wards placed in their site without being chased away. This just proves my point. The lack of progress in clear wards metric is compensated by the amount of assists you receive from your auras. They CAN measure it. They have the technology and the budget to do it. It just sounds like older and veteran players are so used to the current system they really can't part ways with it. "But it works, you just need to learn the way to make it work for you" Of course it does, and I can learn to do work with it as well. I play other competitive games at a much higher ELO, most of these games are fighting games and card games. Usually games where the W/L rating only depends on your own performance as they are mostly on a 1 vs 1 basis. So really what matters is weather you win or lose. This game uses the same system on 5 vs 5 team based game. Which is ridiculous. As you've seen on my profile I don't play 1-3 champions. I play 2 hands full of them. There's reason for that. I dislike playing the same champion, over and over. In 1 vs 1 games I have no trouble shifting around and working on different styles at the same time. But in league hell, I only seem to climb when I OTP Yorick and ignore my team. I believe the heavy black and white state of the MMR system is a relic of the S1 times. Where they didn't collect as much data on games. They created a skin for MMR called the LP system which is still meaningless as only the MMR matters. Like I've mentioned before this system has been applied in other mobas and it works fine. I've made an edit on the main post you can see an example of what I've seen at work. I will add you later today as well as I want you to go in depth with me later. I might sound bull headed, I am still firm on my point. But I want to know why you have this take on the subject.
: Ok no most smurfs are not challenger level players most smurfs are diamond or platinum level players. You completely missed the point about it not being a coinflip though. I didn't say anything about the people playing against a smurf my point was if it was a coinflip then how do they get high winrates. If it was indeed a coinflip then everyone would have a 50% winrate yet people who actually belong in higher elos because they're good enough have much high winrates when climbing up to the elo they belong in. Again same goes for boosting which the "MMR system" you randomly refer to in your comment without providing much context for. If the game was a coinflip then they would have 50% winrates which is not the case. I wasn't stating that it matters whether it's entirely based on individual performance or only partly based on it but please tell me how exactly you would measure an individuals performance. Edit: Oh and of course people don't think they placed fairly but if you based peoples ranks on what they thought they deserved 90% of the player base would be in diamond rather than 6% and I'm sure that'll fix everyones problems of low game quality.
> Ok no most smurfs are not challenger level players most smurfs are diamond or platinum level players. I never said most smurfs. I said smurfs with 90% win rate are most likely at challenger level. I highly doubt Platinum or even diamond players are at 90% win rate below those ranks. > yet people who actually belong in higher elos because they're good enough have much high win rates when climbing up to the elo they belong in. It's called a coin flip elo because riot enforces 50% win rate between teams. You can test this in porofessor, any match you'll play will mostly be calculated with around 50% win rate for each team as a whole. This means if you have a high win rate you'll be matched with lower rating players to even out the win rate in both teams. Obviously if you are a smurf no matter what the system does you'll always have an overall edge over other players, hence why the win rate is much higher. But the learning curve shouldn't be based on the information you gather outside the game it should feel like there's an increased difficulty as you move up the ranks. And I shouldn't be playing like a diamond to move out of silver without grinding. If I'm above the average skill level on my elo I should be rewarded for this. And if you feel like my making a joke of my efforts by silently inting then you deserve to be punished for it. > I wasn't stating that it matters whether it's entirely based on individual performance or only partly based on it but please tell me how exactly you would measure an individuals performance. This is already being done when it comes to mastery. Hell even porofessor can give you a general idea of the qualities of players around you. You cannot be honestly saying that a system influenced by individual performance is unachievable. You can pick a role and set metrics to evaluate the performance of said role. I.e. As Support - number of assists, damage done to turrets, champions and jungle objectives, wards placed, ward cleared, distance traveled, skill shots landed, skill shots missed. And these would have different values relative to the role you play. Let's say - each metric contributes value 1 on average, since you play support value of Kills has it's contribution reduced to 0.5 on the overall performance score while assists has a contribution value increased to 2 - this can also be narrowed down to specific champions. Let's say Pyke who can contribute to the team by killing with his ultimate. Ultimate kills done by pyke would have the same value as assists. > Again same goes for boosting which the "MMR system" you randomly refer to in your comment without providing much context for. If the game was a coinflip then they would have 50% winrates which is not the case. MMR system -> System that judges your skill level based on your W/L rating.
: That is actually some thing I was surprised about when playing mobile moba”s 1. Your performance is taken into account at end of the match 2. You can report people for performing badly
I had exactly the same reaction.
PurpleOrk (EUW)
: You are right in most of that analysis, but you are wrong in defining only 2 groups. The people intentionally ruining games, either by griefing in various ways (like intentionally feeding or messing with others' gameplay) or going afk (like ragequitting after they die for the second time) are JUST AS IMPORTANT to decide what team wins and what team loses as the distribution of "climbers" and "funners". You could be playing soraka jungle while drunk (I have) and still win if the other team has an inter and an afk. Matchmaking could take this into consideration, like so many other things to make matches more fair and more fun. But people don't understand the final objective is not a ladder in which everybody achieves their deserved rank quickly and stagnate so they play less. It's a grindfest ladder full of cointoss matches and an artificial 50% winrate enforced and streak breaking and a rank + mmr system that punishes you ALL THIS TO MAKE YOU PLAY MORE AND MORE. That's the final objective. Numbers, money. This is a business, not a hobby (for Riot, that is).
Ah yes. I'm not saying people playing for fun and winning should be punished. They earn their points, even you soraka jungle drunk and you still perform well you earn your deserved points. As for inting players, griefers and ragers. Well, they fall in either of the groups I specified depending on the reason behind those reactions. In fact most of the time, the people you find griefing are usually stressed out climbing players. While the silent feeder playing shaco in the jungle is usually someone just trying out champions for fun. Or the afk who just wanted a piece of league fun before going to work but the match took longer than expected. My depiction of the two groups involve all those reactions. That's what I meant when I said "This creates a rift in the solo/duo community that can only be filled with toxicity."
: I clearly rebutted his argument to give LP based on performance as opposed to winning the game. Winning games very much reflects your performance in the long run, as games you perform well but lose in, will balance with games you perform badly but lose in. The current system works, we have highly skilled players in higher Elo, and lower skilled players distributed below. What problem is this going to fix? Nothing There is not a problem, the system clearly works for determining skill. No challenger players ever get stuck in low ranks on new accounts. His arguments clearly reflect that he has no impact in his games, he declares it a coin flip. As if there is no skill involved, you just hope for that 1 person who gets 15 kills in lane and carries you. And hope you dont get the 0/15. This is just not true, anyone who has ever improved and climbed and goes smurfing knows how easy it is to get 85-90% winstreaks, because these players make so many mistakes you can freelo iron to diamond in under 70 games in a good run. The only thing i think would help the game is a change to LP I think a flat 25lp win/loss system would help make climbing less of a grind. Maybe making it flat 20lp at Dia+ This would avoid those 98-99lp moments which can be frustrating and stressful. I wouldnt even mind promos being removed since they are basically pointless, you dont even get LP for them. If you are climbing you have to win 9 extra games (2/3 2/4 2/3 3/5) for 0 LP to clear a whole tier. 25-40 min games really add up as it is, compared to most other games where you can go from bottom to top in a day in somcases, league can take weeks of grinding.
> 25-40 min games really add up as it is, compared to most other games where you can go from bottom to top in a day in somcases, league can take weeks of grinding. And this sound good to you? It takes weeks grinding because the system is flawed. Because you get matched with and agaisnt smurfs. And you're never really playing at your elo.
: NO im not saying you play individualistic. I said you have to ignore what your team types in chat, and not let them get in your head or affect how you make decisions. This is fundamentally a team game, and i said you have to recognise your strong team members and weak ones. Because you will need 2 people to win the game with if you are good as well. 2 people can outright feed but as long as 2 other people can do their job, you have a chance to win. If you see 2 ppl playing smart, join them, roam with them, help them do their job. Get each other fed. You must absolutely play as a team, but never argue in chat or flame. This makes your team lose FAR more than the enemy killing you. Once you shut up and focus on playing to win, and not playing to defend your ego from tilted players you will win more. Your individual performance cannot be measured reliably, there are people with higher ranks than me with worse stats in riots comparisons. Every champ works differently, how can Anivias wall, Trundles pillar, ward placement, exhaust usage, teleport usage etc etc, ever measured if not by successfully winning the game? How do we measure inting sion? Or proxy singed? How do we measure supports impact? The game cannot even accurately track which lane you are because some champs roam all day and dont really farm. But they set up ganks, objectives, towers and have a massive impact on the enemy. Your idea is not trackable, and would encourage stat farming. People would place wards anywhere to get vision score, steal CS, steal kills, abandon a teamfight to not die. I see people taking deaths to protect bounties going to enemy, so giving 300g is better than giving the enemy 1000g. Or costing the AP carry 10 mejais stacks, which could win the next TF, and game. Once you can climb by losing, you create a new meta-game and CERTAINLY not teamwork. Like i said, add me and i can probably explain a lot to you.
> Once you can climb by losing, you create a new meta-game and CERTAINLY not teamwork. Alright so I see you misunderstood me. I never said performing well and losing would earn you LP. I said it would reduce the LP taken from you. I'm not saying that winning and losing become irrelevant in the outcome of the game. You still lose and earn points based on the overall result of the match. You'll earn more or lose less based on your performance. > How do we measure inting sion? Or proxy singed? How do we measure supports impact? So your answer is to not measure anything at all? If there are resources to measure why not use them? I've played support for a while and when I feel I play well I always get a good rating in the end of the match A or above. So something is working. It's not longer S1 they have access to more information now. What's so wrong about using it?
: +1 While I am agreeing that we should have our performance change the LP or MMR, how can it be done without players abusing it? Also assuming that "performance" for the system is judged through metrics like cs, kda, kp, dmg,... how will it judge "good" players with "bad" stats? For example I am jg, I am behind in cs and kills, but I regularly steal drakes, heralds and barons for the team-which gives the team more advantage, but from statistics I will be graded as playing bad. Or what if I am a supp that repeatedly dies to protect carry or dies in trade for a fed opponent? There are certain tricks to do it, but let me ask you first and see what's your opinion on this before writing them.
This is not a system that's hard to refine. I'm quite sure Riot has the resources to make a better analysis, if they can have a measure on every kind of damage you've done in the game including damage to turrets and I'm very sure they can do the same with other objectives in the jungle. If they've done a pretty accurate system so far without intending to use it on MMR then imagine if they do try to adjust it to the climb system. I'm positive they'd get more metrics for greater accuracy. I also edited the main post with an example on how this could work without being game breaking.
: Riot has smurf detecton, it doesnt take long for smurfs to picked up and get put into queues with each other. This game is 10 years old, there are not that many fresh innocent new players.
And what does this smurf detection system use to detect smurfs? Does this mean if I play really well my performance will dictate who I play agaisnt. So let's say I am clearly above my peers I shall get matched with other smurf silvers that will make my climbing harder?
: Ok so many problems with this. First off if the games just a coinflip then how does boosting exist? How do smurfs get 90% winrates while playing solo. How do challenger players so quickly and easily get back into high diamond mere days after the beginning of the season? Secondly if you think the system should be based on your individual play in game how do you measure that?
The Smurfs you speak of are Challenger level players. Which also play a role in the coin flip effect. As of the moment you're matched against this Smurf you're no longer playing in silver elo. Boosting thrives on the MMR heavy system because of this effect. Or do you think anyone would ever look for their services if they felt they were placed fairly? I never said the system should be based on individual performance. I said that individual performance should have an influence on the result of the match. riot already measures this you get a rating and full match details at the end of every game. The full MMR system is a relic of a time where they did not have all this information. People dont seem to want to let go.
: https://euw.op.gg/summoner/userName=EXOICE I cant really sugar coat this. You have been silver for 6 years and not learnt how to play the game at all. I just scanned through your yearly ranked games, and you basically are where i would expect you to be. You have put in less than 300 ranked games in 6 years on that account, and you play on average 25-50 champs in ranked depending on the number of games you played. I played over 1000 games last season, 500 the year before, 1000 again the year before, and this is just my main account. i have 2 smurfs i levelled up to p1/d4 too. If you want to add me on EUW i would explain what to do to get better, as theres a few concepts key to learning this game which need to be expanded on. The basic outline though is - PLAY GAMES - ranked only and play solo only Learn 2/3 (EASY) champs Flex 2 roles for those champs, lets say you pick Malph, Veigar you play MID/SUPP, MID/TOP, TOP/SUPP and stick to it. Use probuilds.com for item help, but learn how to counter the enemy with dynamic item choices e.g If they build MR, you need Void staff, not Deathcap as next item. Focus on your gameplay, ignore your team. Focus objectives, towers and pushing lanes. Always create pressure and dictate the game Look for the stronger players in your team and help them Look for the weakest enemy players and abuse them Look for the strongest enemy and make their life hell by building to counter them, then get in their faces so they cannot carry. Everything you are complaining about is in your head. Once you know the game you will climb out of silver every time you get put there. You just apply your knowledge and get the rank you are. Right now you are absolutely a silver skill player.
Sorry for keeping this short, but I'm on my phone. I'm not having trouble climbing, I went from silver IV to gold in a week or so last season in solo while not playing league at all for the entire 2 or so years. And on s2-s3 I didn't play ranked, I only played normal games 1k or so games here, 3k on another account. Stopped climbing while playing duo. I'm having a take on the system. I feel it's outdated and you'd get a more accurate ranking system if they also used the resources they now have and focused on individual performance. You can just take a look at your suggestions, that clearly indicate that the best way to play ranked solo is by being individualistic . Which based on the MMR system is what's encouraged. My suggestion promotes teamwork, cooperation and a more rewarding experience. Obviously this is looked down on by people who climbed as you suggest. And I understand and respect that.
: > Why is this so? I'm sure most people here have made this analogy but playing games in ranked can give you a slight sensation of flipping a coin. This happens when you don't impact your games a.k.a. being hardstuck. >Your personal MMR will not reflect your personal growth as a player. So even if you do great games individually you will still lose and win the same exact amount of points. This as reached a point where it's simply easier for a player to make a new account and do placements from scratch so they can reach higher elos with less games - and less stress. Actually it does. What you don't get is the system is based on win/loss **only** (like chess, for example) which means that for big imputs of game played the MMR system will Always put you where you belong regardless of luck. Also, the second part is true for everyone when the ladder soft-resets. You actually gain 24 points and lose 15 or even less. >2nd: Because your personal performance isn't taken into account. It really doesn't matter what you do or play, as playing seriously or playing for fun will earn you the same rewards and if climbing is already a coin flip by nature then it makes taking things seriously a further waste of energy. In the end, you are promoting carelessness and discouraging serious gameplay. Again, this is because the MMR systems it's literally an algorithm based on ELO system (used in chess ladder). Only wins matters. And that's fine because a system which includes imputs as "stats" "farm" etc. would be really bad for the game. - - - - - Now, don't take this as a personal assault: most of those individuals complaining about the MMR usually are either low-elo/new players or hardstuck for many seasons. As long as you actually try to improve and play the game correctly you'll see a rewarding growth both in MMR and ranks, that's the truth. (Also, till plat the system is very user-friendly with all those free wins you get each time you lose a promo).
> [{quoted}](name=IRON GODNESS,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=Y7xIEB8K,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2020-01-18T19:21:00.957+0000) > > This happens when you don't impact your games a.k.a. being hardstuck. > > Actually it does. What you don't get is the system is based on win/loss **only** (like chess, for example) which means that for big imputs of game played the MMR system will Always put you where you belong regardless of luck. Also, the second part is true for everyone when the ladder soft-resets. You actually gain 24 points and lose 15 or even less. > > Again, this is because the MMR systems it's literally an algorithm based on ELO system (used in chess ladder). Only wins matters. And that's fine because a system which includes imputs as "stats" "farm" etc. would be really bad for the game. > > > - - - - - > Now, don't take this as a personal assault: most of those individuals complaining about the MMR usually are either low-elo/new players or hardstuck for many seasons. > As long as you actually try to improve and play the game correctly you'll see a rewarding growth both in MMR and ranks, that's the truth. (Also, till plat the system is very user-friendly with all those free wins you get each time you lose a promo). Win/loss ratio works in non team based games. Like chess. What makes you think it's accurate in team based games. Based on your logic. You'd never rank a football player based on individual performance but based w/l rating on the teams they played at.
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