: I think the reason why Riot didn't implement a seperate reason for that is that it rarely ever happens. Since the new champ select was introduced it happened exactly one time to me. There are also very few threads about this problem on the boards, so it seems to be very rare in general (which is amazing btw). The problem is that there is actually a downside to adding a new report reason: It draws attention to the topic and this attention might actually increase this particular violation. Something similar happened with drop hacks. I think it was 2 years ago when reddit and the boards where full of threads about drophacks. The funny thing was that at first these drophacks where not actually more common than before. Some Rioter mentioned the problem somewhere and it got a lot of visibility, snowballed and suddenly everyone thought that every tiny bit of lag and every disconnect was obviously the result of a drop hacker in the enemy team. People were very upset about that and thousands of threads exploded on social media....and all this raised awareness for the existence of drop hacks, which resulted in drop hacks actually increasing. Providing a specific report reason for role stealing can give people the impression "Oh, if they have to implement a new report for that this seems to be a big problem"...and this perception can result in more people actually doing it, either because they just got the idea or because they think it's common and normal.
> [{quoted}](name=Humpelstilzche,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=AjezJkcw,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-12-06T10:15:07.112+0000) > > I think the reason why Riot didn't implement a seperate reason for that is that it rarely ever happens. Since the new champ select was introduced it happened exactly one time to me. There are also very few threads about this problem on the boards, so it seems to be very rare in general (which is amazing btw). > > The problem is that there is actually a downside to adding a new report reason: It draws attention to the topic and this attention might actually increase this particular violation. > > Something similar happened with drop hacks. I think it was 2 years ago when reddit and the boards where full of threads about drophacks. The funny thing was that at first these drophacks where not actually more common than before. Some Rioter mentioned the problem somewhere and it got a lot of visibility, snowballed and suddenly everyone thought that every tiny bit of lag and every disconnect was obviously the result of a drop hacker in the enemy team. People were very upset about that and thousands of threads exploded on social media....and all this raised awareness for the existence of drop hacks, which resulted in drop hacks actually increasing. > > Providing a specific report reason for role stealing can give people the impression "Oh, if they have to implement a new report for that this seems to be a big problem"...and this perception can result in more people actually doing it, either because they just got the idea or because they think it's common and normal. That is anecdotal evidence at best. Also sometimes it is underreported when people would rather win the game and pacify the trolls. As the violation happens before the game even starts people might forget this. But it should be a serious offence. Because the people that do this do it deliberately and have total disregard to other people and should be considered cheating. Disagree fully with your opinion. I do not think it would generate more of this behaviour, in fact there being a specific report reason may act as a deterrent for thsoe considering it.
ThePikol (EUNE)
: I got S yesterday on first try! I went bot with Heimerdinger, we didn't have adc and I went AP on-hit. 16/8/22. I have to say she's pretty strong late game :)
> [{quoted}](name=ThePikol,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=FeQ5AxOI,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-12-06T06:47:46.133+0000) > > I got S yesterday on first try! I went bot with Heimerdinger, we didn't have adc and I went AP on-hit. 16/8/22. I have to say she's pretty strong late game :) Nice, good work! But she's also super strong early game! As in level 1 - 2. I can't think of many champs who outdamage kayle level 1 - 2 because of her OP passive.
SeekerK (EUNE)
: Free Skin Contest nr 29
{{champion:84}} {{champion:98}} {{champion:85}} They say that ninjas cannot work together. Well that is not true. Has no one ever wondered why you get -1 HP when you play Akali, Kennen and Shen on the same team? Yes, they need this debuff as this is what _balance dictates_. When the Triumvirate of the Kinkou order unites, it is an unstoppable force that makes enemies see their last _moments approach_. Their strategy is one of _enforced equilibrium_. Each third of the Triumvirate plays their own role in the fray. They _tread lightly_, until disturbed in their meditation of _balance in all things_. The ninjas wait carefully until the opponent disturbs the equilibrium by attempting an attack. Each ninja is built to not only evade these attempts, but also _press on_ and counter _without a sound_. At the moment least expected by the opponent, ninjas leap _from the shadows_ in aid of eachother. As for individual roles? Ultimately, they _travel the same path_. To think ninjas must be confined to a certain role is folly, for ninjas rely on the element of surprise. Their role is to deliver _a silent death_ in its least expected form. Any loss is _a necessary sacrifice for Ionia_. But remember one thing my fellow ninjas... _hesitation is the seed of defeat_. Don't bother picking up either of the Triumvirate unless you have an iron will and {{item:3067}}{{item:3112}} of steel.
Perilum (EUW)
: You win a marathon but not a sprint. So go top and play the splitpush game.
Kayle is much stronger in team fight than as a 1v1 champion. Without jumpy escapes, in the league of dashes, Kayle really isn't the best splitpusher. Gank gank gank with super short cooldown of R, jungle pressure (your jungle clear is very strong so if you have spare time and vision go counterjungling. Just my opinion.
ThePikol (EUNE)
: I need help with Kayle
Underrated Kayle roles: Jungle, Support, ADC. Jungle: I have played jungle kayle since Season 2 and she has ups and downs but ultimately is much stronger than most people think. Her clear is very good, and her level 1-2 damage is almost unrivalled. Many people are surprised at how strong the Kayle level 2 or 3 gank really is. You don't need a gap closer, but helps if your laner engages before you gank, but with your huge attack range, you can easily follow-up even if the enemy laner flashes. At level 6 you have godly tower dives and outplays with your ultimate. Build: {{item:1419}} {{item:3006}} {{item:3115}} {{item:3091}} Weakness: counterjungle and hard cc - kayle is ranged so relatively squishy and if you're cc-ed during your E, most of your damage is gone. Very hard to 1v1 people in jungle before level 6. Support: Again, Kayle's level 1-2 damage is absolutely unrivalled. Go in lane, and just press E and start hitting people, dodge cc and watch their healthbar drop. If you don't get level 1-2 kill, you should have at least won the trade because of how much damage you do. Harass hard whenever the enemy misses cc. At level 6 your ultimate should help your ADC win most trades. Build: {{item:3303}} {{item:3092}} {{item:2049}} {{item:3115}} {{item:3107}} Late-game: build damage and be a 2nd ADC. Ultimate whoever is doing the most damage (could be you!) ADC: Your early damage makes you a lane bully. You MUST take advantage of this from the first minion wave onwards, otherwise you will get outscaled in lane because of your E cooldown. I have tried different builds on kayle and to be honest most are similar. You can go crit kayle for late game if you want. Good luck! Edit PS: Common pitfalls of Kayle: 1. Often your teammates (like your opponents) have no idea how your champion or ultimate works. You have to show them and tell them. Your team underestimates your damage, and overestimates your ultimate duration and heal. 2. First rule of Kayle - never ult someone else. People will waste it. This is obviously not true, but using Kayle ult on someone else has 7/10 chance of being wasted. 3. Your ult is there to soak up damage, not to save someone at 5 hp. There is no point ulting someone at 5 hp who then is useless through the fight, while you ignore the ADC doing tonnes of damage and dying slowly.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: Ok... But, maybe the reason to why no one wants to play supp is... u cant climb playing supp. Most of the times, i do a good job playing supp only to see my team doing bad decisions... is sad. But when your team plays good being the supp is realy cool, and ending the game with 30 or 40 assists is nice.
Thank you for agreeing with my point then. :)
: If it incites toxicity and dismay in the ranks of your allies, it is not a thing you would want to continue doing. If it's been met with disagreement, in a ranked game where people should work together to achieve results, one may want to reconsider. This is not a strategy that can work without the rest of the team adapting to it. If you simply substract a support and add a second jungler/counterjungler, the ganks/buff steals may or may not work but the ADC WILL suffer on botlane 1v2 for your decision. There is no balance between risk and reward. He took the risk regardless of his teammates, in a team game. Basically, imagine it as a hockey team where the goalkeeper suddenly goes attacking. If it's a strategy approved by the coach, it's doable. However, it's unacceptable for the goalie to decide on this himself. New and exciting tactics have their place in league - in teams that collectively accept this and work together for this to happen. Not in soloqueue, where EVERYBODY disagreed. He played 34 games with this and had about 30% succeed rate. Does the strategy suck so much that it loses this many of games? Definitely not. He INTENTIONALLY PISSES PEOPLE OFF TO THE POINT THEY THROW THE GAME. He abuses the support queue timer not to support. He explains what he wants to do but doesn't care about the team accepting it or not. This Singed, this "nonmeta support" spits on everything that makes up the support role. He breaks the team, instead of being the moral support. He creates a hole in his team tactics, instead of trying to fix those that are there already (picking a peel/initiator/tank if there is none in the team) He not only loses the LP of his own, he makes his entire team lose, while making the game not enjoyable while losing. Tell me, is there a single point why i should admire his behaviour? I can't find any.
There is a huge difference between admiring someone's behaviour and respecting someone's freedom to do what they wish to do. I agree most points you raise. I agree that teamwork is more likely to help you win. I agree that in soloQ unfortunately to win often you have to babysit your team because they don't have the psychological maturity to behave properly. We are actually not answering the same question at all. You are answering the question "Is this sort of behaviour annoying and unlikely to succeed in winning?" My question is "Should 'annoying' (as opposed to intentionally subversive) behaviour be punishable by bans?" and "Should unsuccessful unconventional strategies be banned?" I do not think so. I believe in natural selection of strategies... the ones that work will stick around and the ones that don't work will die out. But if Riot bans all new strategies and not give them time to develop, then the game will end up with a single strategy. And that makes for a stale game.
: > Riot when will you start realising, the support role in this game is garbage. No one wants to play it. ...I want to play it.
Congratulations on your argument based on a anecdote, when my argument is based on the statistic that EVERY TIME YOU QUEUE, SUPPORT IS FASTER - i.e. the vast majority of LoL players do NOT want to play support. I'm not talking about individuals here, I'm talking about the population as a whole. And as a general rule for the population, people do not like to play support.
: If you want to try out new stuff, do it with premades. If you force a "new, cool and totally viable" strategy on people that disagree with you, you are the bad one, ESPECIALLY when it goes wrong (and since we know 30% winrate is not exactly good, it did go wrong). Abusing support/fill queue timers to not support is alike to cheating. That's bannable. His behaviour was "i don't care at all, i will play what i want" This is not how teamwork works. If you refuse to understand this, you are a sad, biased person. I, as a support main, am DISGUSTED that you even try to defend this Singed.
I respectfully but thoroughly disagree with you. Please leave out the ad hominem comments. It doesn't help your valid argument. But as I explained before, this sort of attitude stifles innovation. Sure when I'm at the receiving end of 'failed new tactics' it annoys me and sometimes even tilts me when people fail so spectacularly. But at the same time, I don't want these people to be banned for it. Their punishment is loss and losing LP. It should not be suspension from playing. It stifles creativity and takes away fun from the game. An analogy is that even if I dislike what Donald Trump has to say, I still believe in his freedom of speech to say it.
Fauvel (EUW)
: The irony of banning NON-META SUPPORT
So many people supporting their own oppression. My point still stands: they banned him because his teams didn't like the way he played. His behaviour was nothing different than any regular player. The only DIFFERENCE is that Riot expects BETTER behaviour because he plays a role differently / off-meta. But whatever, I don't actually care that much, if you guys all want to swallow this, feel free to.
Rioter Comments
PTCmaf (EUNE)
: The Singed support's threat of a permaban is utter lunacy
What a ridiculous decision. Riot I hope you can see sense and reverse this and apologise. When you start limiting innovation, that is when your game starts to die. Doesn't affect me, I'll just find another game. Same for all the other players. But Riot, you, you will go down if you continue on this path. Choose wisely.{{sticker:slayer-pantheon-rainbows}}
: Are you telling me you only play to win?
No one plays to lose. You have fun but also try to improve at WINNING. No one plays to have fun and to lose constantly. Having fun doesn't mean you are not aiming to win. I don't know how to make this any clearer.
: So you like playing Janna and wonder why you can't carry? As much as I want to agree with this post, and I actually do agree with some points in it, I think you have issues with learning the role as a whole, as well. Support is the most hard-cooked and complex role to carry as. That's why we support mains love it.
I'm not sure why people always feel the need to turn the argument onto me as an individual. If you go on draft pick normals or ranked and select 'fill' - every single time you get support, because NO ONE WANTS TO PLAY IT. There is a problem with the role if no one wants to play it. It is not MY problem. I will play support anyway because I enjoy it. And as it happens janna is my main and in ranked I have the highest win rate with her. But that doesn't change the fact that support in general in this game is in a terrible spot. Why is this simple concept so difficult to understand????
: Now with the added fun of triggering the toxic "premades" (aka. people so socially inadequate that they can't find 5 people who want to hang out with them) who try to play it seriously. Looking forward to trying lots of off meta builds/picks in flex :D {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-popcorn}}
The worst thing about 3 or 4 person premade is not trying off-meta picks. It's when they feel stronger in numbers and no matter what else happens have to do everything they can to make the non-premade 1 person on their team feel miserable. I hate these people so much.
tortsY (EUNE)
: U can always leave from that match :) first leave of the day only costs -3LP :D
That is literally not the point. Why should I be punished for a douchebaggery by another person? If people like that don't get banned, they will keep doing what they do.
: Are you telling us, that you found out that sup cant carry?
Yes, yes I am. I am also telling you that is the reason every time you queue up and select 'fill' you end up with support. What is the point of having a role that no one wants to play? Matchmaking would also be a lot faster and more efficient if all roles were wanted equally.
RazerX (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Fauvel,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=I2uNVg1X,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2016-11-16T16:53:31.383+0000) > > Yes, to solve the systematic problem that NO ONE wants to play support, I simply go and make up a new meta for millions of players worldwide, on my own. > > Good luck getting past the reports and trolls in silver. People don't like non-meta. And if something non-meta really helped you win, it would become meta. > > You completely misunderstand my point and I doubt anything I say will change your mind. The issue is difficult to understand when you always play with players at the same level as you. > > But as soon as you play with people who are several levels better or worse than you, you'll understand. (You do this by smurfing or by teaming up with friends who are higher or lower ranked). > > When you are by far the best player of the team, the last role you want is support. I will bet you that the vast majority of league players will continue. > > Now picture the typical elo hell / ladder climbing mindset: 'I am better than these bronzies/silvers so I need to carry myself to plat'. So you already know you are going to be the best player of your team. What role are you going to pick now? Hey I get it. If you play a champion that cannot carry and build it so it's even less effective in battle then it's not going to make a difference in team figts if your team is crap. I understand that. In fact, nobody on your team will see it that way even if you're better and they will probably blame your loss on you. I've played my share of support roles, because frankly I don't care what I play as long as I have fun. And only in higher level of play is your work actually appreciated. The thing is, I don't understand why you complain about a role in the game that is there to help the others do their work and then say it cannot do the work itself, which is inherent to the role itself. Still there are certain types of support characters that can build damage and still work as a support. Probably not in each and every situation and not in each and every team composition. In a game where everything is stretched to maximum efficiency there is hardly any room for you to do anything different without pissing others off. So what is the goal of a support? To help their ADC build up so he/she can carry later in the game? To roam and gank to get others ahead? If that doesn't work because they are inept then you have only a few choices left. Take over (if your champion allows it) or accept defeat and move on to the next game. If your ADC is crap then you have no reason to stay in his/her lane if you can be useful doing something else is all I'm saying. The ultimate goal is to win the game. Not follow a select set of rules that someone invented that insures a 51% winrate. If you can win by changing the way it is "normally" played there is no reason not to do that.
I know what you're saying about what the role of support is currently. Of course I know all of that. I am a support main by choice (because janna is the best champ ever created). I am not complaining for the sake of it or because I am bitter/salty/sour. I still have fun playing support. But don't you think it's a problem that no one else wants to play support and whenever you 'fill' in draft pick or ranked, you end up with support? Clearly there is something seriously wrong with a role if every single time you 'fill' you end up with support.
nigelf 33 (EUW)
: I can carry my team really hard and I main "support" Zyra.
That is literally not the point. I can carry my team really hard on janna or nautilus or even kayle support. But I can also carry much harder on nautilus or kayle jungle. I am a support main, not a jungle main. This is my point.
Rioter Comments
RazerX (EUW)
: There's nothing wrong with the support role. It comes with the job of a support not to be a carry. So you basically complain as a Diamond player that you are a support and cannot carry. Other players are worse than you? This happens. What is it you want? To be able to carry as a support? To not have a support on the team (This can actually work just DO it) Instead of complaining about this stalemate, perhaps you can be more imaginative and make up a new meta. Go and come back when you got something.
Yes, to solve the systematic problem that NO ONE wants to play support, I simply go and make up a new meta for millions of players worldwide, on my own. Good luck getting past the reports and trolls in silver. People don't like non-meta. And if something non-meta really helped you win, it would become meta. You completely misunderstand my point and I doubt anything I say will change your mind. The issue is difficult to understand when you always play with players at the same level as you. But as soon as you play with people who are several levels better or worse than you, you'll understand. (You do this by smurfing or by teaming up with friends who are higher or lower ranked). When you are by far the best player of the team, the last role you want is support. I will bet you that the vast majority of league players will continue. Now picture the typical elo hell / ladder climbing mindset: 'I am better than these bronzies/silvers so I need to carry myself to plat'. So you already know you are going to be the best player of your team. What role are you going to pick now?
Needler4 (EUNE)
: 10 Additional free supports makes ZERO sense in EUNE
No one wants to play support because[ you can only help your team not lose, rather than make it win.](http://boards.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-en/I2uNVg1X-supports-cannot-afford-to-be-the-best-player)
GripaAviara (EUNE)
: Ofc people hate playing support, but it's not the actual role's fault Now, read all, then comment/vote: Personally, I enjoy playing support. It's not a boring role. Is cool! Is a break from the boring farming/last hitting. You can plot actions, you can harras "bastards", you can turn the battles, you can roam the bot lane warding, etc. Then what's the problem? The elo hell is the problem. Supports can barely climb unless you have someone to play with. It's damn depressing to play your part perfectly and a 5-0 in 10min jax comes from jungle/top and completely obliterates you and your adc. And if is not other lane, then you got an adc that literary is trash. And that's ok, until it happens 3 times in a row. This is the trauma of playing support at low elo. All this could be manageable, but the problem is unless your team is in front you have 0 cash. And to spend it wards will make you too weak to keep up the pace in a game were everybody goes solo despite you endless pleads to get objectives and stick togheter and use the damn vision you provided for them. And at the end, they all say "report" because you got 0-10, despite the fact everybody died more times than you even if they have kills to make the score looks nicer. And again, all this, you get used to. But every damn season, after you tried so hard to climb and succeed, Riot comes and says: "fuck you, go back 1 tier" . And again, you toughen up and learn not to play support and get hypercarries and escape the elo hell. You reach a point where you can relax and start supporting, only to realise you completely lack the mechanics and the exercise to be a decent support for that elo. So you're back to your old champs So tell me, why should I pick support as a low elo ?
So well said! Playing support is enjoyable, but to climb the ladder we have to abandon our favourite role because [it simply does not impact the game enough. ](http://boards.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-en/I2uNVg1X-supports-cannot-afford-to-be-the-best-player)
Keirgo (EUW)
: To be fairy, I chose 'caddy' because they...y'know...are lackeys pretty much =p To be fair, I've found satisfaction in a few sacrifice plays. It can feel great when you save lives or give up yours to throw the enemy into chaos and allow your team to begin routing them. Your KDA...yeah...that's often not gonna be great. It'd be nice if the full view of the match details spotlighted assists as much as it did kills. And there are good, appreciative teams out there. I recently played a game where I swept in at the last minute (ala Batman) and saved our Jungler. Playing as Morgana I threw Blackshield on him and snared the enemy jungler, buying not only time for him to escape but giving him crowd control immunity right as he needed it. Once he was safe back in fountain I got a gushing of 'I love you Morgana' on the team chat. There are always going to be good and bad days playing this, or any, game. Some days we get great teams that appreciate everyone others...too many others, we don't. Supports just often tend to be at the bottom of the boot a lot of the time. And I agree, and so too do Riot going by their post, that the contribution of Supports is all too often invisible, not noticed until it's gone. It's why I wanted to focus on that 'image of supports', what people think the role is about. The better everyone understands the idea of the role, the more that role's contribution can be noticed.
Problem is, most people (including me, and probably including you) don't play this game to get satisfaction. People play to **win.** And sure, when your team is carrying with your help, you get thanked, you feel good after plays etc. But at the end of the day, [can you make your team win?](http://boards.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-en/I2uNVg1X-supports-cannot-afford-to-be-the-best-player)
: I once played a game with skarner jungle, during a siege of the enemy inhibitor turrets, my team dies, and there's a caitlyn and talon left at 10% hp, I was pretty tanky and packed a lot of damage with thornmail, so I dive them both, and they run back to their fountain, being skarner I was fast enough to catch up and continue chunking their HPs, I killed caitlyn before she reached the nexus turrets, I dived talon under the nexus turrets and got him before he was able to get to his fountain. When all was done, I take a look and see our janna support, she was with me that whole time, shielding and protecting me. It's moments like this that make me wanna give the support a big hug and thank them. She came with me on what someone else would call a suicide mission. That's why supports are the most invaluable role of all.
That's all very well, except it sounds like you were carrying as skarner. You may have been the best player on that team, so janna was helpful. Now picture the scenario where the janna was the best player of the team, and her jungler was not very good and needed to be carried? Who's going to be hugging the support then? Carries often appreciate a good support. But a good support without someone else carrying ... well we call that a losing support.
Keirgo (EUW)
: The image of Supports.
The image problem is only secondary to [game impact.](http://boards.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-en/I2uNVg1X-supports-cannot-afford-to-be-the-best-player)
: Short overview of issues with support role
Excellent points made. Please see my [post summarising the essence of the support problem](http://boards.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-en/I2uNVg1X-supports-cannot-afford-to-be-the-best-player). Riot it's time to listen!
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Fauvel

Level 30 (EUW)
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