Silisa (EUNE)
: You should be employed by Riot. This post is totally analytic. Love it.
> [{quoted}](name=Silisa,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=IFBlLkFO,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2015-09-21T07:20:05.083+0000) > > You should be employed by Riot. This post is totally analytic. Love it. It's just lots of experience from playing support, really. I do appreciate the praise though.
Fapsion (EUW)
: Why does bot lane always feed?
Well, it's not like other lanes can't feed. But in general, let's seriously answer this question. 1) The fall of ADCs. Basically, ADCs have been nerfed over and over again, and even the ones who still remain are hardly a match against any other lanes (meaning that it takes a REALLY farmed ADC or lots of outplay to kill top/mid/jungle). It's like Riot decided to make the 1v2 (any lane vs adc and supp) at bot have a 50% winning chance, which is quite sad. So, once a TP/roam/gank is successful, someone is very likely to die, with a possibility of double kill (which sets the lane behind 2x). In fact, a lot of midlaners nowadays take TP as winning the matchup in mid is harder than farming kills botlane. 2) The skill discrepancy. Not only this lane requires constant cooperation between two random people, but it is also really volatile due to high dmg/low health of ADCs. So, when facing a higher skill/cooperation opponent pair, it often becomes a cycle of feed, especially in lower elos. Also, double kills are possible, making the opponent fall behind >2x more than any other lane. 3) Limited assistance from jungle. Once botlane falls behind, most *good* junglers don't even attempt to recover it because catching someone becomes infinitely harder due to higher number of people in the lane. Falling behind also often signals about the skill difference that I mentioned above, so due to all reasons I mentioned the gank feels more like 2v2 than 3v2, meaning that it's risky and, quite often, time wasting. 4) Rotations in soloq are terrible to say the least. Wayy too often one laner roams/tps bot (often with the jungler) while the other laner has no clue and enjoys free farm while botlane is being dove by 4 people. The correct play would be to ward against roams/tp counter, but once again, more than often that does not happen in soloq. Hope that explains a bit.
lindanova (EUW)
: Valkyrie Leona Cosplay
Looks nice, but Leona without a shield is like Jax without a staff. The helmet could've used a tiiiny bit of work (the feather wings part). Still, really cool initiative there.
Rioter Comments
Seederb (EUW)
: I didnt say you pick at the same time as the enemy team, are you so dense you cant understand what's been wrote? PLAYER CALLS LANE THEN USES HIS POSITION ON THE VISUAL REPRESENTATION OF WHAT HE PERCEIVES AS A "PICK ORDER" Im saying that pick order is not represented as such and is as follows, the players who pick their character are represented by the numbers stated in the diagram, the first PLAYERS to pick their characters are the "FIRST PICK" ...
> [{quoted}](name=Seederb,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=7ZUKGEU0,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2015-09-04T02:12:17.139+0000) >...are you so dense you cant understand what's been wrote? Nope, don't try to put your faults on me. By the way should I start calling you names too? > PLAYER CALLS LANE THEN USES HIS POSITION ON THE VISUAL REPRESENTATION OF WHAT HE PERCEIVES AS A "PICK ORDER" I don't see how's that relevant. > Im saying that pick order is not represented as such and is as follows, the players who pick their character are represented by the numbers stated in the diagram, the first PLAYERS to pick their characters are the "FIRST PICK" ... Call whatever you want "first pick", I sincerely don't want to waste time arguing about that. What I do NOT like is that you're basically saying that if two players happen to be paired together as your definition of "pick", the player above the other has no priority in choosing the role. Which brings confusion to the matter ("discuss the matter in 30 seconds with a random stranger who may not even speak English" - sure, good idea) and is not how real world works. In any case, feel free to keep posting here your wise opinion, but it won't change a thing - if you steal a role when you're choosing as 2 people and the other guy is above you, you will get trolled/flamed/etc. I tried to explain why for your own benefit, but since you're figuratively spitting at me, I won't talk any further and let you experience how hard the world turns around your navel.
Seederb (EUW)
: Actually, If i walk in to a restaurant/cafe adjacent to a man and we arrive at the counter at the exact same time does the man who speaks first get served first??? yes... Ergo the system i present makes the most sense.
> [{quoted}](name=Seederb,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=7ZUKGEU0,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-09-04T01:51:49.161+0000) > > Actually, If i walk in adjacent to a man and we arrive at the counter at the exact same time does the man who speaks first get served first??? yes... > > > Ergo the system i present makes the most sense. First of all, you physically cannot be at the same counter at the same time. Real world rules, you know. Counters are not wide and there aren't big ass multitasking men behind them serving a separate client with each hand. Which you're trying to suggest. Only in virtual world that is somewhat possible, but then you'd be trying to invent something totally out of this world and human understanding. In fact, the current pick order was accepted by Riot themselves as the default one as it eliminates (or at least reduces) the squabble over roles. You're, of course, free to suggest "your system" to them, but I sincerely doubt they'll accept it due to the reasons I listed above.
Seederb (EUW)
: Pick Order Explained... Hope this explains it...
No. If both people want the same role, this basically offers no default solution that both players SHOULD follow. Accept it - it's random what place you get. Like pulling a ball out of a jar to be placed in a tournament. Sometimes you're first, sometimes you're second. First ALWAYS has a priority over second, just like in chess - white goes first. Hey, some game you'll be white, that's inevitable, but when you're not, just take it like a man. The fact that 2 people pick at the same time was introduced to allow counterpicks for BOTH teams instead of being always royally screwed if you're in the second team. It has nothing to do with your pick order - it still works just as if you being in a queue in a restaurant, and you saying "this guy in front of me should be served at the same time as me cause we both walked in together" doesn't work that way. Cause real world has sensible rules. The one whose back is in front of you is ahead of you and has the priority.
: Cough {{champion:238}} Cough Death Mark Cough
> [{quoted}](name=ShadowKiller275,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=pebAotpX,comment-id=0006000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-01T08:01:19.313+0000) > > Cough {{champion:238}} Cough Death Mark Cough What horrible cough! I think you bit on {{item:3140}}, sir? On a serious note, {{champion:238}} is super good against worse players, but not that great against good ones. For comparison, once you're in a bad spot and {{champion:107}} ults, it's RIP for you unless HE fucks up.
Sub HeroCro (EUNE)
: This is true until you reach high platinum
Ya, then it's only {{champion:107}} {{champion:105}} {{champion:7}} {{champion:157}} that make screen lose colours instantly. But then again, from high plat people generally have enough game knowledge to be a significant threat with any champ.
: Remove adc's from game as they are useless now
So you play an adc. The enemy picks any of {{champion:107}} {{champion:105}} {{champion:56}} {{champion:157}} {{champion:55}} {{champion:11}} {{champion:39}} {{champion:120}} {{champion:121}} . Have fun playing League in black and white. > [{quoted}](name=Lame of Legends,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=pebAotpX,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2015-08-31T22:05:58.777+0000) > > So you think a team full of assassins would win by default? Has higher chances if equally skilled. There's a good reason why a large majority of picks are assassins.
: Plz nerf rango
If not for the broken English, I would wholeheartedly agree. Rengar is probably the strongest jungler now when Nidalee has been nerfed. To be honest, his trinket turning into passive was an undeserved buff to an already really strong jungler. To compensate, the warning area of his ult and his jump distance should be both slightly nerfed, and possibly his ult cooldown should be increased as well. Then again, Riot doesn't care about what we think, so this is just a random thought.
: Leavers and AFKers - we need solutions!
Should be 24h penalty increasing with each afk within 48 hours (so 24-48-72 etc). You don't maintain your sh*t, you shouldn't play a team game online. As simple as that. You want to play league - sort out your problems during the first 24h period.
Rioter Comments
: Power of Splitpushing
Team doesn't do fine on its own when they engage us 5v4 (league of fucking gapclosers baby) while you're happily farming. Besides, in low elo someone always misplays and gets caught in like 30 seconds when teams gather. Splitpushing requires extremely good timing and decision making to NOT be detrimental to the team. And if you had those, you would probably be higher elo than you're now. So, your team was probably right when they disliked your game throwing ways, and that would happen no matter which champ you'd play.
: Why has Zyra Support fallen off?
Immobile and squishy skillshot based champ. I love the concept, but she would need a sh*tload of HP (and a USEFUL passive) to be viable. Plant AI is retarded too, snare cast is REALLY slow and this ult cast time in the League of Gapclosers is just unacceptable. For all means and purposes, there are better supports like Vel'koz, Brand, Annie etc. who are tankier/do more dmg/are less skillshot dependent/have lower cast times.
: Need a new adc
"Similar to Jinx" All adcs are quite different. If you don't main the role, Cait is best, but you don't want her, so... Corki maybe? Tristana is good, but requires you to adc well else you just get smashed in lane (not always killwise, but in cs instead)
: Kalista is BROKEN champion that need to be FIXED
Hit the f...ing axe. Kalista is like that - you don't hit your shit, you lose. You hit one CC and shes dead. There's also stuff like slows which hurts her a lot (like Rylais ones etc), and if it was 2v2 with supports you wouldve probably won easily.
Puddytat (EUW)
: This is very interesting, but I still have questions. - Why exactly do you say he has great synergy with Taric? Taric has only one form of CC, which is on a fairly large cooldown, and is just as immobile as Morde. Because they're both melee, they'll be close together and even more vulnerable to area CC and ganks. - What is the importance of having a tanky support in the first place? Morde is fairly tanky himself, and the relic shield does not actually give Morde more money than if he kills the minions himself, just a little healing. I had more, but it I'm watching the LCS right now, so I'm leaving this here for the time being.
> [{quoted}](name=Puddytat,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=zlLhzU08,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-08-23T15:38:04.365+0000) > > This is very interesting, but I still have questions. > > - Why exactly do you say he has great synergy with Taric? Taric has only one form of CC, which is on a fairly large cooldown, and is just as immobile as Morde. Because they're both melee, they'll be close together and even more vulnerable to area CC and ganks. > > - What is the importance of having a tanky support in the first place? Morde is fairly tanky himself, and the relic shield does not actually give Morde more money than if he kills the minions himself, just a little healing. > > I had more, but it I'm watching the LCS right now, so I'm leaving this here for the time being. 1) Taric has tankiness which is what Morde requires from a supp AND sustain, which means you can't really push him out of lane. Also, point and click stuns are valuable, especially like Tarics short CD one. His ult synergizes with Morde quite well too. 2) The general way is to try to poke out the ADC as he has less HP and pots. With Morde, it's impossible, BUT Morde cannot cover his support as proper ADCs, so poking out his support is much easier and the best strategy to use. Relic gives sustain AND shares gold AND waveclears. All of which is really good.
: http://www.lolskill.net/
> [{quoted}](name=Gr8 M8 8 outta 8,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=4FEtjMzB,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-08-23T13:12:04.036+0000) > > http://www.lolskill.net/ Thanks. And yes, it's legal and legit. Almost the same as lolnexus, really, but gives a few stats more.
: So if you dont get your season rewards.. What would you do?
I won't care either way. There's absolutely no need for a particular skin as long as custom skins are legal. For example, what beats this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMbvTFqvwM4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t862R034NHM] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7XGQShs-uM] "Yes, it's true... for only $2.95 a minute I would leave you... breathless" {{champion:40}}
: please make normal games FUN (matchmaking)
What's the tool that shows this?
Rioter Comments
: Okay, I'm done with your match making policy RIOT.
"I've played on multiple low level accounts" Stopped reading after that. Whatever you get, you deserve.
zouaxe123 (EUNE)
: Tips Against Daruis, and Katarina
{{champion:55}} - pick a char with some sort of hard cc (preferably ranged) and literally hold the CC to shut the b*itch up. As soon as someone in your team gets below 50% health EXPECT her to jump him INSTANTLY and have your CC ready for it. It's really a reaction matchup - whether Kat will jump and ult down the target faster or your CC hits her. Kat HATES instant CC like stun Tibbers and will never engage if it is up. if your cc is not instant, try to stay fairly close to the guy with <50% HP (you should check any video for kat's ult range) to reduce cast time. MOST importantly, HOLD YOUR CC. I know it's extremely tempting to use it for something else (for example a catch), but be the wise guy and endure. That is probably the hardest part of playing against Kat - it seems you must cripple yourself to prevent her from destroying your team while she's throwing daggers and laughing at you. Yet, you MUST do it. Don't trust your teammates to, ever... One word - contrary to the common belief, even without ult Kat deals quite a bit of damage, so if a teammate gets below 25% or so, he is literally dead unless you ping him off and try to stand between him and Kat while punishing her as she goes into Shunpo range. if you can't do that and the guy is stupid enough to stay, make Kat trade 1 for 1 by standing next to the guy and CCing her as she kills him. takes really honed reactions to do it though, so keep practicing. Finally, MR. Don't ignore MR even if Kat has all the magic damage on the enemy team. 1 aegis on the team makes a huge difference already. Even a 0/10 Kat should be treated as 0/0 in terms of damage and fight potential... PS. If Kat beats you in reaction speed you're literally screwed. Still, try your best and eventually you will get fast enough to counter her cause her actions are really quite telegraphed.
Domica (EUNE)
: Rengar is literal cancer
Generally impossible to stop if he plays well and gets ahead. However, if he does NOT get kills until about level 8, falls behind quite a bit, especially against devourer junglers. He really can't oneshot/kill people without getting about 3 kills and completing {{item:3142}} and {{item:3074}} quickly. Denying them is extremely important, so play safe in lane, freeze more than push, look at deep wards (if you have them) and maintain distance from enemies if you can't gapclose to tower. Group quickly, don't soloshove etc while team is gathering. It's basically what you do against Eve and Shaco, really. Obviously, in soloq someone IS likely to feed him (especially since no one ever picks tanks). Depends on your role, but you generally can make Rengar cry with a lot of picks for all roles. He is kinda in top 3 junglers now, so it will be difficult, but it's quite doable. For sieges/objectives pink ward is a must, but generally staying together is the real counter.
Rioter Comments
: Learning ADC
Nothing but Cait. Until you learn how to multitask properly your positioning will be crap and if playing another ADC you'll just be an easy target. Also, you *should* understand the necessity of poking and how useful it is in lane.
: And another game lost, because the jungler plays KNOWING he has a 500 ping.
Nothing you can do right now about it. Rito values every acc cause they can/do buy skins.
Ahdee (EUW)
: Queue Dodging in Normals
Play Teambuilder more - you can see the team comp and decide whether to play it or not. I usually skip 9/10 teams - whenever I don't like something (all squishies, all AD, all AP, Soraka jungle etc). You don't have to fight over your position too. As for dodges in other types of normals, every 24 hours its 5 mins first dodge, 15 second, 1h third+. About the same as ranked, really.
DELDE115 (EUW)
: then what you´re saying is that the ADC role is the problem, not the support role. "support is great but if the adc is an idlot...". We found one of the problems. When people play solo lanes they tend to do better ( firstly if they how to duel) because you only depend on yourself. Plus you got a support main mentaility. No matter what lane you play, you will ward the map so much it looks like the 4th of July. So even if you´re not doing great, you´re still proving lots of vision, which in the long run will make your junglers job easier for ganks. And make good teleports come from your toplaner.
> [{quoted}](name=DELDE115,realm=EUW,application-id=2BfrHbKG,discussion-id=hZcfIxz7,comment-id=0005000100000000,timestamp=2015-08-14T11:08:02.104+0000) > > then what you´re saying is that the ADC role is the problem, not the support role. "support is great but if the adc is an idlot...". > > We found one of the problems. > > When people play solo lanes they tend to do better ( firstly if they how to duel) because you only depend on yourself. Plus you got a support main mentaility. No matter what lane you play, you will ward the map so much it looks like the 4th of July. So even if you´re not doing great, you´re still proving lots of vision, which in the long run will make your junglers job easier for ganks. And make good teleports come from your toplaner. I'm not saying the ADCs are always idiots. I'm saying that IF the ADC is one, you are TOO RELIANT on him. Same in TFs, I can land a 3-4 man Leona stun but who cares if team wants to run. There's no role that depends on others performing well as much as support. Also, there's no point in vision if team can't use it (BTW you can only place 4 wards so it's not 4th of July, especially since other roles hardly ever use trinkets let alone OH MY GOD buying a ward). And warding vs not warding is the bronze problem, you climb a bit above, you will see that just like you, the enemy support will ward as well making it 1-1 in terms of usefulness. Cause both teams tend to have towel boys and towels ready. Still, pretty much only the sportsmen decide the match.
DELDE115 (EUW)
: I know this is your opinion, but goddam everything you said is just wrong. You´re not a support main.
> [{quoted}](name=DELDE115,realm=EUW,application-id=2BfrHbKG,discussion-id=hZcfIxz7,comment-id=00050001,timestamp=2015-08-14T09:57:13.990+0000) > > I know this is your opinion, but goddam everything you said is just wrong. > > You´re not a support main. Check my lolking. This account is my support only account. Silver 2 with 1 LP and is likely to drop further. For a minor comparison, my mid only account is gold 3, and I suck at mid much more than at support (take my word for it). It's just that no matter how well you feed the ADC, if he is an idiot it does not matter - he will either evaporate in first two seconds of a TF, get caught before it or (somehow most likely) not participate in a TF at all and splitpush ignoring the rest of the team/objectives/etc. By the way, the ADC role is in a bad spot right now too, so if you stick with team enemy mid more than likely can solo the ADC splitpusher easily, and staying with him as a support means your team gets 5v3ed. One of the most annoying problems I have now is that I may poke down/trade well, but the enemy hugs tower, ADC pushes like an idiot to their tower instead of zoning them out, does not use trinket during my trinket CDs and we give double and lane to a gank/tp/mid roam (or a combination of those). Which means being a good support becomes detrimental - cause my idiot ADC would be hugging his tower with a worse support and would not die needlessly, leaving the rest of the team a chance to carry. As for the TF stage, outplaying the other support does give you more chances to win, but you're generally at a huge disadvantage if you've already lost bot. PS. I use both pings and words extensively, and you can check my warding too. Does not help against idiots. Feel free to stick to your opinions though, especially if you don't main the role, but a new guy should know how reality looks like IMHO. Support is balanced with bot duo+ or 5s, but not in soloq.
: support role needs improvement
Support is the least influential role in soloq and those who claim otherwise either lack experience or knowledge. There's a very good reason why support pick is always forced on last pick. It's like being the towel guy in a football team - you kinda belong to a team, you kinda have influence with encouraging speeches, timely water, proper snacks etc etc. You may even climb on the stage with the team but you're really not the guy who actually wins the cup. It's nice to have a good water guy. It's nicer to have a good football player. And if you had a choice to be either, which would you be? tl;dr support sucks. PS. support main here.
Light Show (EUNE)
: Lookin' for a duo Q partener.
You did notice that you did not mention your main roles, right? People usually want to know them cause, for example, toplane and adc duo is kinda pointless most of the time. *Hands a piece of gum*
Nyakwando (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=xCillion,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=Ezqsw730,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-08-13T01:23:39.073+0000) > > Greetings. > > Usually it is not just 1 game, but you can [Submit a Request](https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/requests/new) to PlayerSupport, "fight" your way through the first template answers, and they will usually share some more Information with you about it. nice joke bro.... they will tell ya to "fu" and deal with it in a mannered way. they dont hand out any kind of proof to at least give u the possibility to actually reflect on the very situation which caused your improper behaviour at the very match/es
> [{quoted}](name=Nyakwando,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=Ezqsw730,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-08-13T09:36:10.581+0000) > > nice joke bro.... they will tell ya to "fu" and deal with it in a mannered way. they dont hand out any kind of proof to at least give u the possibility to actually reflect on the very situation which caused your improper behaviour at the very match/es They send you the chatrlog of the last match most of the time though. And people come here with it, post it and say "all ... should die of cancer" "stfu noob" "go die idiot" are just minor disturbances, they're not flame at all you know. The people who cry here also forget you must have a history of reports to receive those punishments. FE myself, I have been reported many times over my games, I'm pretty sure of that. But as the vast majority of the times I do not flame and only get an occasional false report with an even more rare deserved report, I have not received any punishments yet.
Mecar (EUW)
: Ahem, {{champion:1}} and {{champion:25}} are MIDLANERS played as support, not the reverse ^^
> [{quoted}](name=Mecar,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=nxW1Iey0,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2015-08-11T01:51:08.955+0000) > > Ahem, {{champion:1}} and {{champion:25}} are MIDLANERS played as support, not the reverse ^^ That may have been the intent, but it is not anymore. Like Tahm Kench support when he is a toplaner at best.
: Good. Play ADC vs a Lulu and tell me you don't hate your life. I'm glad with Lulu not being meta, laning vs her is soul crushing.
> [{quoted}](name=Sir Apatosaurus,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=qE5UKqAW,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-08-11T01:14:55.100+0000) > > Good. > Play ADC vs a Lulu and tell me you don't hate your life. > I'm glad with Lulu not being meta, laning vs her is soul crushing. {{champion:16}} says hi.
idfc (EUW)
: i used to play her as a support kinda often, but the struggle of constantly running out of mana and having to back too soon because of their poke on squishy me ( i play agressive) i decided to play the ones who has a pretty nice agressive laning phase or can stay longer on lane.
> [{quoted}](name=Mídnight,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=qE5UKqAW,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2015-08-11T01:11:17.680+0000) > > i used to play her as a support kinda often, but the struggle of constantly running out of mana and having to back too soon because of their poke on squishy me ( i play agressive) i decided to play the ones who has a pretty nice agressive laning phase or can stay longer on lane. At this moment I find her awesome EXACTLY because her poke isn't mana dependent. It's her AAs. Play Sona, get oom after like 7 Qs. Play Lulu and enjoy the free dmg from AAs + Pix.
Mecar (EUW)
: {{champion:117}}
> [{quoted}](name=Mecar,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=nxW1Iey0,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-08-11T00:41:56.080+0000) > > {{champion:117}} Agreed, but there's also {{champion:1}} and {{champion:43}} Other than that, supps that were mentioned are very situational and mostly super easy to counter. For example, {{champion:25}} vs any true poky mid is just terrible.
Bombardox (EUW)
: ANy tougts on kha'zix laner ?
My thoughts - yuck, please be on enemy team. Now seriously - a weak yet viable pick, but generally destroys team comps due to having no tanky top and sitting in backline most of the time rather than initiating. OFc if you crush them early, it does not matter, but if the game is equal, it's a serious problem to his team. Cause a good Rengar can instadelete a carry, he is way more viable later on. Khazix generally can't approach carries safely enough to work well.
Rioter Comments
: Zyra needs her movement speed buffed...
She needs an entirely new passive, really.
Rayz019 (EUNE)
: A Jungler's job is not to win your lane for you, you need to not die to jungle ganks, a full farm Udyr most likely will take more dragons than a regular jungler, and 4 towers is anything but unimportant.
> [{quoted}](name=Rayz019,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=oPEEmltt,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-10T04:28:49.540+0000) > > A Jungler's job is not to win your lane for you, you need to not die to jungle ganks, a full farm Udyr most likely will take more dragons than a regular jungler, and 4 towers is anything but unimportant. "Need to not die to jungle ganks". Easier said than done. Even LCS grade players die to the junglers cause, well, 2>1 or 3>2. I do agree that it is not jungler's job to win the lane for me, but you shouldn't expect 1 to win against 2 or 2 to win against 3. Which is what IS happening while Udyr is literally out of the game. And when you get successfully ganked, let's say twice, in an equal lane, it literally means going up to 1600 behind which is basically an item. If it's a powerspike item, good luck recovering the lane (for example Corki's triforce). You get zoned, you get harassed etc etc. And when Udyr awakes from his slumber, not only you're two kills behind, the CS is like 60 to 160. So, what could be an equal lane becomes a very clear god vs minion matchup. I do not blame junglers in general. However, people who play farm junglers at high elo compensate with good map awareness and so on. They do not farm 24/7, they use their knowledge to keep the team alive. Ever wondered why Nunu builds sightstone? Cause he has very limited influence during the laning phase, so he COMPENSATES by providing vision of enemy jungler. It's actually much harder than normal jungling to compensate, and if you can't do it, don't play a farm jungler at all please until you master jungling in general.
Rayz019 (EUNE)
: And then Udyr gets 4 towers by himself.
> [{quoted}](name=Rayz019,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=oPEEmltt,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-08-10T02:55:49.337+0000) > > And then Udyr gets 4 towers by himself. And then no one cares cause score is like 10 to 30. And that sure has nothing to do with enemy jungler ganking and snowballing his lanes. I've seen both good and bad udyrs, but indeed, a lot of them go full farmer and gank like twice or thrice in 20 minutes, while enemy jungler ganks around twice as much. And this game can be so snowbally that by the time Udyr gets his devourer sated it may be pretty much over.
Enjutsu (EUNE)
: > 1) Solopoke. Due to sustain from {{item:1075}} + {{item:1053}} and maybe a pot or two it becomes negligible she comes to lane only with {{item:1055}} so you have plenty of time to achieve lane dominanc and even when she gets {{item:1053}} you should've gotten some lead that it only denys some of your poke, > 2) Playing defensively, poking only against overextension > 3) All-in or seeking kills. you combine them both, you poke her down and look for a chance to go in, if you can't then you simply zone her away from cs. About her kit: her cc is good 1v1, but it's rather lackluster bot in a 2v2 she can only push away one of you, her passive does help her get agressive, but her early game is weak so she doesnt have a chance to really use it and the spammable gap closer gets spammable only later into the game. one more thing, i've noticed some supports are afraid of trading, it's true that adc because of more offensive stats has more damage and can outtrade support in that trade, but supports ussually have at least 2 {{item:2009}} so in the end they come on top. So get some bread, cheese and go Ham. Edit. about this : > I guess it was a bit too much to read, so I'll repeat - I'm not scared of Vayne. afraid could be a bit wrong phrasing, but the point is, you have this strong image of vayne so you trade less, give her more freedom in lane and things get out of hand. Some of the supports you tried coul've contributed to that image you created. To overcome it you're gonna have to take some risks and see what happens, just at least pick supports that can do something to her.
> she comes to lane only with {{item:1055}} so you have plenty of time to achieve lane dominanc and even when she gets {{item:1053}} you should've gotten some lead that it only denys some of your poke My last game as Sona with Cait vs Vayne and Nami. I could barely manage to get Vayne to half HP before running OOM and I can't even say that Cait did not help. All Vayne lost was a few CS that she couldn't farm under tower, but she hugged tower till Nami healed her. So that's what happened before 6, after 6 she would straight out kill Cait due to her midgame spike and Cait's weak midgame. I understand this could be prevented with good wave control from the adc and zoning/freezing, but trust me, wave control is a rare knowledge among adcs so I can't depend on my ADC to be able to do it. > you combine them both, you poke her down and look for a chance to go in, if you can't then you simply zone her away from cs. That's such an umbrella answer that I can't see any use in it. You poke her down -> Vayne plays safer and maybe loses a few CS. You go in, she has disengage for that. Zoning is impossible without the help of the ADC, which, as I mentioned, in this case is not happening, so it's more than likely to get 2v1ed every time you move up from the backline where you ADC sits happily CSing. > > About her kit: > her cc is good 1v1, but it's rather lackluster bot in a 2v2 she can only push away one of you, her passive does help her get agressive, but her early game is weak so she doesnt have a chance to really use it and the spammable gap closer gets spammable only later into the game. > That push can be turned into a stun too, so it's really quite useful if she gets someone to a wall or repositions while enemy is under supps CC. As for spammable, I mean its almost no cost short cooldown escape, meaning that it is about as short if not of a shorter cooldown that most enemy skills. For example, Sona comes into range with Q at level 2-3, Vayne can move in with passive, AA, tumble, AA, walk out and Sona cannot trade AAs either and just has to take it. > one more thing, i've noticed some supports are afraid of trading, it's true that adc because of more offensive stats has more damage and can outtrade support in that trade, but supports ussually have at least 2 {{item:2009}} so in the end they come on top. I'm certainly not afraid of trading, but if your supp has 4 pots, enemy supp has them too, and if you burn them carelessly for just a bit of damage, Vayne or any other ADC can sustain with Doran's (and later on, even Vamp) while a lot of supps can't sustain fast enough to match. > afraid could be a bit wrong phrasing, but the point is, you have this strong image of vayne so you trade less, give her more freedom in lane and things get out of hand. I've checked my last game replay with Sona and it was exactly opposite aside from the trading part which is, to be honest, silly due to vayne's passive that allows her to focus you anytime if adc doesn't cover.
: I would go Braum against Vayne because of: * The enemy cant choice braum as support * Hes shield can resque your adc from the third shot * You can jump to your adc and boost armor * he got a poke that slows * he works well whit frozen heart and that item is a must against vayne * He is tanky enough to not get 3 shoted
> [{quoted}](name=themackattack,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=YgpfYvPH,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-08-08T15:21:15.795+0000) > > I would go Braum against Vayne because of: > > * The enemy cant choice braum as support > * Hes shield can resque your adc from the third shot > * You can jump to your adc and boost armor > * he got a poke that slows > * he works well whit frozen heart and that item is a must against vayne > * He is tanky enough to not get 3 shoted Interesting. But doesn't it become "dodge Q get Braum to nothing while he's retreating" kind of lane? Could you tell me how a Braum can win lane with a passive adc? It sounds a bit more "endure the lane" stuff like Janna.
: This questions have been all around boards and reddit for Quite a while already: "How to win botlane if you supp sucks?" and "How to win botlane if your ADC sucks?" First off I consider important - especially in botlane with a "stranger" - that you COMMUNICATE. If possible even from champ select. Communicate about how it is best to play a matchup. About what you will do at what stage of laning. Whenever I'm vayne with a Blitzcrank for example i will tell him to grab someone while he is standing close to a wall himself at lv 2, because I can unexpectedly chose Condemn instead of Silver Bolts right away when I hit lv 2 - Most lanes will have tried to push me into tower and i will have let them at least close in a bit, so that blitz can land a grab that would get them in turret range, i follow up with condemn, and if he's not dead (90% of the time) they will at least burn 1 flash, 1 heal, and 1 exhaust. Thus they just gave lane dominance away in one single and swiftly punished mistake. BUT - this will ONLY work if you communicate. Communication is crucial, specially in botlane when playing with someone whom you have never played with before. This is also a reason why I always recommend finding a DuoQ partner of your skill level that mains the opposite role (supp /adc) so you can Queue up together and communicate via TS/Curse/Skype/Whatever - AND most importantly - get used to each others playstyle.
> [{quoted}](name=Kwathreon,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=YgpfYvPH,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-08-08T08:08:15.717+0000) > > This questions have been all around boards and reddit for Quite a while already: "How to win botlane if you supp sucks?" and "How to win botlane if your ADC sucks?" > > First off I consider important - especially in botlane with a "stranger" - that you COMMUNICATE. If possible even from champ select. Communicate about how it is best to play a matchup. About what you will do at what stage of laning. > > Whenever I'm vayne with a Blitzcrank for example i will tell him to grab someone while he is standing close to a wall himself at lv 2, because I can unexpectedly chose Condemn instead of Silver Bolts right away when I hit lv 2 - Most lanes will have tried to push me into tower and i will have let them at least close in a bit, so that blitz can land a grab that would get them in turret range, i follow up with condemn, and if he's not dead (90% of the time) they will at least burn 1 flash, 1 heal, and 1 exhaust. Thus they just gave lane dominance away in one single and swiftly punished mistake. > > BUT - this will ONLY work if you communicate. Communication is crucial, specially in botlane when playing with someone whom you have never played with before. This is also a reason why First of all, I must note that I don't say my ADC sucks. Who knows, maybe he rotates well and positions great in TFs. The problem is that, he is passive in lane and does not abuse the weak point of the opponent when he should be doing that. And, more often than not, that makes us worse off in the long run. Your tip though - I do not see this as a solution, sorry. Maybe I'm just a pathetic socialiser, but coordinating with team aside from pings seems nearly impossible. For example, I used to call invades when we had a good lvl 1 cc team (for example Morg, Jax, etc), but when it's 2-3 people coming it becomes pointless to look for an early kill. Thanks for trying to help tho.
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> [{quoted}](name=General Murica,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=YgpfYvPH,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2015-08-08T15:34:15.967+0000) > > Tldr of this thread by now > > ''vayne is an amazing adc, constantly engaging in trades, my own adc is afk, vayne is op'' Please go troll somewhere else. Never, even in a single word had i said Vayne is OP - but I did say in quite a few ways that I can't find a way to deal with her. It is an advice request which, for God knows what reason, you tuned into a "you're wrong I'm right" children's bout.
Enjutsu (EUNE)
: Most of the supports you mentioned are rather mediocre choices against her, but i can see even them working. Utility poke support work just fine against her.,Zyra and especially Sona are good picks against her. You overvalue {{item:1053}}, sure it gives some sustain, but it's no where near enough to compensate for the damage from the support and still she doesnt get right away, you have plenty of time get get lane dominance before that. You're too scared of her, her damage early in the game isnt that different from other adc's and i'd say it's probably on the lower end. You're probably trading wrong if you can't come out ahead.
> [{quoted}](name=Enjutsu,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=YgpfYvPH,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-08-08T06:43:45.624+0000) > You're too scared of her, her damage early in the game isnt that different from other adc's and i'd say it's probably on the lower end. You're probably trading wrong if you can't come out ahead. I guess it was a bit too much to read, so I'll repeat - I'm not scared of Vayne. The problem is when you have a passive farmer ADC who more than often knows nothing of lane control or dominance. Then you have 3 choices: 1) Solopoke. Due to sustain from {{item:1055}} + {{item:1053}} and maybe a pot or two it becomes negligible, even before Vayne completes BoRK. Also super dangerous cause due to Vayne's passive + tumble she can close in and mess you up with her support while your adc is busy lasthitting. 2) Playing defensively, poking only against overextensions. This is even less dmg and even more sustainable. Eventually Vayne outscales a vast majority of ADCs playing like that, but even in lane more than often she wears down your own ADC due to, once again, fairly good sustain. With a bad ADC who can't control lane it more than often means constantly pushing to the enemy tower and giving kills to jungler/mid roams/TPs too, while Vayne stays very safe and happy until she scales to infinity. 3) All-in or seeking kills. Vayne has 3 ways to disengage (2 pre-6) and 1 of them can even cover support. No matter how I look at it, her laning is really safe when done properly, and can only mean a minor cs disadvantage. Catching her out is really, really hard, both due to her skills AND her passive, so it more than often fails. On the other side, she has a spammable gapcloser/aa reset, CC/displacer pre-6 reset and "free boots" passive. Past 6, even invisibility... and even more speed. She can engage easily if she wants to, cause even escapes like cait's net are fairly easy to catch with boots + passive + tumble, and she still has ult to boot. What I mean is she can pick her engages and disengages easily. Killing her without a jungler generally only means a bad misplay on Vayne's part, and this third method is REALLY unreliable. ------------------------------------------- I will try Lulu as recommended below (not sure why I haven't yet, really), but I used to play Sona a lot (still do, much more rarely though) and without a cooperative harassing adc who can control waves well she literally can't do poop and eventually gets outscaled by a lot of supports instead, so rather than "countering" Vayne she only hinders her laning a bit and actually gets the team behind more by being outscaled.
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> [{quoted}](name=General Murica,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=YgpfYvPH,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-08T05:33:45.276+0000) > > That 8-10 hp each aa sure outheals the 250+ harras+bad adc=/=vayne OP {{item:1055}} + {{item:1053}} of course. And it's more than enough to give up a bit of dangerous cs, move back and heal up in 2 waves or so. There's also an Vayne's support that can soak up damage due to Sona's retarded skill priorities. It's also super easy for Vayne to turn poke into a trade, and that is very dangerous for Sona. Edit: I see you have looked up my last game, but seriously, that is a recurring problem for me. No matter which support Vayne has, as long as my adc is passive, I can't find a way to carry the lane except when Vayne wastes tumble and fails reaction checks.
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> [{quoted}](name=General Murica,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=YgpfYvPH,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-08-08T05:19:01.972+0000) > > stopped reading By any chance, are you saying her damage is LOW? Especially when she can pick her engages easily and has a spammable aa reset? Then I don't even care about your advice, it would probably be s**t anyway, especially cause you didn't read that I play SUPPORT in this case. As for Sona, she does harass well until {{item:1053}}, but especially if adc is passive and pushes lane, you get outscaled incredibly hard as a squishy supp that can't even run away due to free boots passive + tumble.
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