: About the ''new'' anti-shield mechanics
Adding it to renekton frankly is completely ridiculous, whether he applies it in a skillful manner or not. The champion has been a top tier pick for quite a while now, and doesn't need it. It doesn't even need to be applied in a skillful manner, actually, it'd be fine to have a champion who is just good against shields by default (like it worked for Irelia, although she obviously doesn't need it either), rather than having the counterplay you specifically picked/drafted for(!) locked behind a skill wall. That wouldn't be strategic. You pick a counter, you get the counter unconditionally as the counter is balanced to be just that, and not a goodie on top of an already competely stable champion. Unfortunately, the latter is the case with Aatrox, Irelia and Renekton. Blitz should be fine, though, he offers the least out of any of the hook supports that are a staple for kill lanes (next to mage supports).
: Because grevious wounds is toxic and we don’t need to cause more issues for more champions. The problem at the moment is that grevious wounds has no counter play, you buy it and healing is countered no ifs or buts... when against a champion who relies completely on healing to function an opponent buying grevious wounds renders you nearly useless... at which point Riot then buffs the drain tank to be useful, then they become too strong cause they can overpower grevious wounds so riot buffs grevious wounds, then drain tanks die so riot buffs them. It just creates an arms race which results in healing champions being utterly ridiculous and grevious wounds being must buys because the healing champion was balanced around you buying it. It’s not healthy for anyone involved (If you don’t beleive me vlad is strong, aatrox got his healing increased massively, as did mundo... and now this patch anti healing is being buffed... it’s a vicious cycle). Until riot can actually make grevious wounds a healthy stat them adding the same for shielding will most likely result in the exact same arms race for another group of champions... items hard countering champions ain’t healthy
It'd be pretty difficult to add grievous wounds to an item and then make it applicable only in a "skillfull manner", but it'd also be difficult to make it unavailable through items as the sheer amount of champions relying on healing is so high that grievous wounds needs to be available to everyone. The only item of the category I don't like, though, is Bramble/Thornmail, as I feel like you should need a damage/carry champion to apply the effect instead of distributing it among the enemies just through them hitting you. Plus, most champions relying on healing have their numbers adjusted so that you need the effect to even stand a chance against them. If you were to remove grievous wounds, you would need to cut any healing by a lot, or else those champions become unstoppable.
: > [{quoted}](name=swampert919,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=ElFtiEEA,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-07-20T00:30:42.389+0000) > > Support was fine... the literal only thing which people didn’t like was that a good Kench can stop plays... which most supports can do anyway it’s kinda the point of peel/disengage supports... > > Top was a minor issue, just a lane bully who fell off we’ve had worse tbh... just required minor nerfs and people to learn counter play... but no riot just killed both of them off. > > Tahm does need a full gameplay update but it had nothing to do with tahm, but riots insistence of killing him. He was not fine at all. If you didnt have some way to hardstop him from running down on you as a marksman he´d literally 1v1 you with his damn base damage alone until like 3 items. A very few picks being exceptions like Vayne. Tried to engage on him or his marksman? He was too tanky to kill and he´d just pick his marksman and run if you went for them, which effectively screws over most enemy supports. He was like this juggernaut-tank-support packing damage, tankiness and utility all in one. To make him fine he´d need a new kit and he´d have to lose either his utility or his damage......tankiness is too important but one of the others would have to go.
Juggernaut, precisely. He's ridiculously easy to kite, expecially now. He effectively has zero backline pressure in later fights now. The job of a soloq frontline is mostly to pressure out the enemy backline's cc. Tahm is such a small threat later on now that the enemy team needs to expend little to no resources to keep him off, thus rendering him useless for the aforementioned job. Meaning he sucks with assassins or other backline-dive champions who can only go in after cc has been blown, because chances are Tahm can't make that happen. So he's bound to peel, which actually might do more harm than good in soloq with his devour on teammates. Thus, the champion essentially equates to an autoloss (a bit radical, but the point is clear) after 20 to 25 min, since it's extremely unlikely for him to fulfill any teamfight role correctly, but he also can't splitpush due to many champions in the game outdueling him at that point. He may be good at getting away with R, which is also important as a splitpusher, in order to soak pressure without dying, but who is he going to pressure sufficiently when one person such as Jax, yi, etc are already enough to drive him away. Chances are he's in an inceridlby bad spot for soloq now and people only lose to him because they tilt before they outscale.
Trilink (EUW)
: Katarina needs some balancing.
She actually just needs straight nerfs because this "high skill champion" that rewards players insanely much for learning her has been sitting at a 52 to 53% winrate for quite a while now, with approximately a 10% pick rate, meaning that a lot of players, **thus even those that are not actually good at her**, have been picking her and winning a lot with her, meaning that in the hands of an experienced player, she goes off the charts completely. If you design a champion that is balanced through mechanical skill to such a high degree, then not everyone should be winning on her. Right now, many players have decent success, and mains are completely ridiculous. The Riven problem of a champion not actually being that hard to win with as it seems but still being completely insane once you do get around to learning them.
: Better to nerf a champion to be unviable rather than "If i dont ban Tamh Kench the enemy will pick it for sure and i have 80% chance to lose my lane" It's not healthy for the game as a whole. If they can't find any other way to make Tahm viable they must rework his abilities then
The champion's scaling is astoundingly terrible, so he needs to be good in lane to have some merit, other than devouring allies, which is irrelevant for soloq anyway due to people's incompetence to use it correctly. He's literally unable to put on **any** backline pressure in later teamfights now, he's just not a threat at all. Thus, he's unable to get the enemy backline's key cooldowns out, which is the main reason for a frontline to exist in soloq. This essentially forces him to peel from the start as the enemy backline can just ignore him while spending little to no resources on him, and as said, tahm kench peeling in soloq is more harm than good to his own team sometimes.
: Remember that 1 damage isn’t just once... it’s every instance of damage. Against burst doesn’t help at all, but when your against say a DoT mage and they are dealing 10 damage per tick that one damage becomes a lot. You can’t look at raw numbers but also frequency of activation... the more it’s activated the more this affects him (also don’t forget it went from 4 to 3... that’s still a 25% decrease). And what did you mean by the 0.1 health per level, no champion got a change like that
Correct, it's against champions with several damage instances that get reduced indivudually AND this also matters for minion waves, especially early game this change might make the difference between one extra "wave" of minion attacks that might kill you or not.
: > The latter is quite a subjective matter, but if you mean that the splitpush-type of champion seems to be pretty easy on the mechanical side, I agree and also think that we'd need a few more mechanically oriented ones, but new Aatrox doesn't play in that role anymore, or at least not nearly as predominantly as before. Not quite Firstly aatrox doesn’t fit a split push type role, in both old and new lore his main thematic was engaging in massive fights and turning the tide, with the old lore being him inspiring one side to fight on and win, and his new lore just killing both sides. This implies a more teamfight oriented playstyle, like new aatrox currently has. Secondly casting, aatrox needed to differentiate from jax and tryndamere so we will bring those two up in particular... aatrox is a greatsword user, always has been. This means slower strikes but longer range, AoE, and damage.... think burst damage for greatswords vs dps for shortswords. So it makes sense to take aatrox in this direction in contrast to the other two. Thirdly mechanics. Aatrox is a god warrior with centuries of combat experience. This makes him one of if not the most experienced combatant in the league, having fought in the shuriman expansion wars, the ichathian incident, and the darkin wars.... that’s more combat experience than anyone baring the other acsended/darkin. This means he should be more skilful than his opponents lending to a more high skill playstyle. You are right this bit is subjective... but thematically he fits this better than he did his old kit. He should be a skilled fighter killing multible people with a single sword stroke. > Well, these ridiculous situations have happened so many times throughout the years (just talking proplay here), and if it were a tactically bad decision to go and get a pick on the usually(!) mispositioned squishy But again you have to shift your perception of the work mispositioned (and squishy for that matter, none of the people you mentioned are actually that squishy bar akali). Mispositioned means that they are in a position where they are in danger, this isn’t universal what is out of position for a kogmaw is different to an aatrox. When you get good at a champion you are safer in a larger range of locations and you identify when you are out of position. So again, if these champions outplayed and killed you or survived while ‘mispositioned’ are they actually mispositioned or did you get baited into a fight by misreading the situation or misplaying yourself. > To be fair, I could also lay the aforementioned champions that I compared to new Aatrox out to be "exactly the same" if I word it in the corresponding way, whether they seriously feel the same is more of a matter of situation and, again, opinion in the end. I definitely wouldn't have minded the Aatrox rework if it had turned him into a mechanically oriented splitpusher, as mentioned, but he turned into a mechanically oriented dive/backline-distract champion, which is what bothers me. Also, I still feel like out of all these stat check splitpushers, Aatrox seriously was the least toxic one and the decision to rework him in specific just boiled down to the low player count, which is unpleasant but understandable. Not quite. While their job is the same the way they do it is widely different... they’ve got different strengths and weaknesses which allow them to stand out from a crowd. If we take riven and aatrox for instance as it’s the one people love to flaunt (despite it being stupid). They have the same job but.... riven has higher burst damage and greater mobility, while aatrox has better sustain and pick potential. So if you want to jump into a back line to eliminate someone you pick riven or require shorter fights, if your looking to set up more picks or you need to fight much more elongated periods of time aatrox is better. That’s how niche works... a class shares a rough job, while each champion does the job differently and therefore gives a reason to be picked Aatrox, jax, and trynd didn’t have that... their strengths, weaknesses and playstyle was almost identical this created issues as you don’t pick one over the other for their individual strenghs, rather which one was stronger. As for why aatrox was first... trynd and jax are much older so needed full VGUs, aatrox was meant to get just a kit rework in the fighter update but when class updates where scrapped he and xin got worked on indepentantly... aatrox’s rework then escalated as more and more things where needed to make it work (it was meant to keep the playstyle, then it couldn’t, then he needed a new model to fit the new playsyle, then they decided to give him the full work as they almost had). So aatrox was meant to be fast a small so they did him in between bigger things, then he turned out to be anything but that.... so yeah he was better than the other stat checkers, that’s why he was first. > And because champs like old Aatrox lacked the outplay potential (on both sides!), macro was more important (relative to the other aspects of the game) than with a mechanical one. Again, I personally don't mind this, but it's a matter of subjective views, I'd say. No the importantance of macro doesn’t change... old and new aatrox require the same macro skill on either side... what changes is the reliance on that skill as the only way to win/beat them... that’s not healthy.
I'm essentially done with this thread (and league altogether with the state it's in now, lol), but just wanted to shoot in to say that for one, the "misposition" refers to the regular tactical framework of the game in which the aforementioned champions should not have these qualities without team assistance. Secondly, if you're comparing specifics like pick potential like with Aatrox and Riven, these differences also exist between Trynd, Jax and Aatrox, as well as Teamfight potency, mobility, CC availability, etc. Saying they "play the same" in the sense that they auto people with no counterplay is like saying Riven and Aatrox are precisely the same because they combo their Qs with similar cursor placement and frankly, if you have a perfectly played Aatrox fight (again, cursor movement and button sequence) and you swap him for riven, chances are it's still somewhat sensible because of how similar these champions play down to these very aspects. Lastly, I mentioned the importance of macro changes **relative to the other aspects of the game for the given player**, which is just a logically accessible fact, as the **relative** importance of some gameplay aspect has to increase if the **relative** importance of another decreases. This is essentially simple math. The less you can turn a given match into your favour through outplay potential, the more this has to be compensated by other tools to generate an advantage, if the kit itself doesn't offer up the opportunity. Comparing new and old Aatrox, the same player in the same Elo would require LESS macro now because they can generate a LARGER advantage with mechanics, and these factors sum up to the same final value, which would equate to their rank in this example. Edit: Oh, also, the very problem with this high mechanic design, which riot itself is aware of (and most of the community is, as well), is that the relative importance of mechanics rises so high that, to reach a given rank (as long as it isn't super high elo, of course), the relative importance of the macrogame fundamentals deteriorates so far, that players can literally manage to disregard them and still end up in the same rank as a player who actually **understands** the game **dramatically** better, thus this whole 11/0 or 0/11 meme with the champions, partially due to some players who main them genuinely not employing any tactical consideration whatsoever yet still managing to get a positive winrate through mechanics alone, which is unintended for a majorly strategic game.
: > The game needs varying degrees of complexity within its champion pool and since riot tends to go more on the skill-heavy side recently, a more stat-checky champion (which, in a way, is impossible without skillshots, (and old aatrox actually had two)) wouldn't be so bad. Besides, there's still the strategic skill involved in getting to these sufficient stats, such as, wave manipulation, setting up solo kills, getting picks, overall just understanding the game, and this just becomes more important with mechanically less demanding champions. > This is also critically important for people to actually learn these aspects of the game, if no simple champions and only options like current Aatrox existed, players trying to improve their macro might only be capable of focussing on their mechanics since the player is more directly connected to this aspect of the game. And it's obvious we shouldn't just have Annie and Garen here, a more varied field of champions is still good for this. Stat-checky doesn't necessarily equal bad, these champions just require/emphasize different skillsets to maneuver and beat. Aatrox isn’t the right champion for that but that doesn’t mean riot is getting rid of all champions like that. Just look at nunu and Warwick, two reworked champions who where kept with a low skill floor allowing players to do what you just said. But there’s also gotta be options for difficult champions as well, ones which are difficult to learn but rewarding to do so... champions like new aatrox need to exist just as much as simple champions like garen. Aatrox’s class already has a ton of simplistic champions, and not that many complex ones... so the niche as a high skill fighter existed, he’s also 6300 ip which implies a harder champion, while 450 ip champions are the simple ones (giving new players them first). His simplicity was also heavily feeding into his issues, and thematically he fit this more difficult playstyle better. > There are plenty of Irelia/Akali clips (even proplay, mind you) that prove this wrong, wherein the aforementioned champions have no real sufficient strategical advantage and should just die or be unable to create sufficient pressure, but end up killing or forcing away several people on their own, even though this doesn't fit within the strategic framework of the game. And don't tell me Proplayer 1 is just this much more mechanically proficient than 2 to 5. These champions allow the person piloting them to influence a given situation so much more than the enemy can, that equal skill (under the premise that whoever is piloting them has "learned" the champion in specific) ends up being a disadvantage to their opponent. Especially Akali here, with proplay proof, but Azir used to suffer heavily from the same problem, etc. These champions have ludicrous winrate differences between beginners and mains/players who use them often, to the point where it is simply unhealthy for the game due to these characters simply having too much outplay potential. I still find Aatrox quite mild in this regard, but even so, the general direction is not healthy, and this has, as far as I know, come to be a relatively widely accepted consensus among the community (especially with Yasuo/Akali, again). But if these champions truly where in a situation with no advantage they would have died... just because you don’t see the advantage doesn’t mean it ain’t there. You’ve akso forgotten something big... these champions needed skill and experience to play, where as simple champions didn’t... you should be rewarded for mastering a champion especially a difficult one, so these outplay potentials are needed for rewarding difficult champions. Most of these are outplays, they require the player to do something to beat the opponent... but that doesn’t mean the opponent is helpless even if it looks like it in the clip. Most of these would see the player dodge abilities or land a skill shot, if the opponent predicted the dodge and landed the skill shot or dodged the skillshots fired at them the outcome will be different. They require a misplay just as much as an outplay. > As if current Aatrox's role of diving the backline and either pressuring out their key cooldowns and/or just outright killing them (not even going over how good he was at applying that pressure with his revive, especially before his mini rework this season), even if you count in the drain tank aspect of it, wasn't also filled by Rhaast, Warwick, arguably new Swain, and so on. It is completely usual for a game with this many champions to have overlapping roles and playstyles and this is fine and just offers more wanted variety as long as they don't feel identical (which, in my opinion, they don't). But they do it in very different ways and have different strengths and weaknesses. Swain has AoE so better in teamfights, Warwick has the stronger cc and is tabkier along with his hunter playstyle, rhaast has a more assasin like twist to it with better single target da,age and target selection, so on abd is forth. The idea of a niche is how you go about your job, your strengths and weaknesses, why pick that champion over anyone else... even with similarity each champion needs their own spin on things to function. yi, trynd, aatrox, and jax all had the exact same playstyle, with the latter 3 being nearly the same... this created massive issues for all 3. > Simply due to being a splitpush champion, Aatrox used to offer up more skill opportunities (macro-skill, that is), than Diana could, since all she does is wait for key cooldowns to be blown and then pray she has enough damage, whereas old Aatrox had 2 skillshots that could mechanically determine the outcome of the fight with whoever he was pushing the sidelane into (although, admittedly, as the game progressed, low impact skillshots) and had to go through a lot more strategic consideration. That’s not what stat checking is. It doesn’t matter about macro skill every champion uses macro skill no matter what. It’s about in fights, how you fight with these champions is you have more stats and ram your head against them till people die. In a fight as aatrox you jump in, auto attack, and somebody died either you or them with very little input on either side. His skill shots actually didn’t matter a whole lot outside of the early game, it all came down to stat checking in the end. Diana at least has a combo she has to do, aatrox it honestly didn’t matter what you did you threw everything at the enemy and hope for the best
> [{quoted}](name=swampert919,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=8uARrEmQ,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-18T16:35:13.839+0000) > Aatrox’s class already has a ton of simplistic champions, and not that many complex ones. thematically he fit this more difficult playstyle better. The latter is quite a subjective matter, but if you mean that the splitpush-type of champion seems to be pretty easy on the mechanical side, I agree and also think that we'd need a few more mechanically oriented ones, but new Aatrox doesn't play in that role anymore, or at least not nearly as predominantly as before. This is just a flawed rework, in my eyes, if not only his micro-plane of gameplay (autoattack to combo-bruiser is fine by me), but also his role in the tactical framework of the game changes, but I agree with what you're trying to get at here. > But if these champions truly where in a situation with no advantage they would have died... just because you don’t see the advantage doesn’t mean it ain’t there. Well, these ridiculous situations have happened so many times throughout the years (just talking proplay here), and if it were a tactically bad decision to go and get a pick on the usually(!) mispositioned squishy, these situations wouldn't happen because they wouldn't go for the pick. But the skill ceiling of these champions just allows them to turn these situations around. This could be considered and planned for, of course, but at that point you're giving up a usually(!) free kill on a terribly mispositioned opponent, potentially even without them noticing (as in: lack of map awareness, this would be more of a soloq thing), just because they've played enough yasuo/akali/riven/aatrox in their lives. Not very tactical or strategic, in my eyes. At this point it's just a clash of opinions and I dislike the matter because I view it as a (highly) predominantly strategic game, and less of a mechanical one (or at least would like it to be), and these champions conflict that. But you're obviously free to weigh these aspects differently, this is just a matter of opinion and you can have yours. > > But they do it in very different ways and have different strengths and weaknesses. > > Swain has AoE so better in teamfights, Warwick has the stronger cc and is tabkier along with his hunter playstyle, rhaast has a more assasin like twist to it with better single target da,age and target selection, so on abd is forth. > > The idea of a niche is how you go about your job, your strengths and weaknesses, why pick that champion over anyone else... even with similarity each champion needs their own spin on things to function. yi, trynd, aatrox, and jax all had the exact same playstyle, with the latter 3 being nearly the same... this created massive issues for all 3. > To be fair, I could also lay the aforementioned champions that I compared to new Aatrox out to be "exactly the same" if I word it in the corresponding way, whether they seriously feel the same is more of a matter of situation and, again, opinion in the end. I definitely wouldn't have minded the Aatrox rework if it had turned him into a mechanically oriented splitpusher, as mentioned, but he turned into a mechanically oriented dive/backline-distract champion, which is what bothers me. Also, I still feel like out of all these stat check splitpushers, Aatrox seriously was the least toxic one and the decision to rework _him_ in specific just boiled down to the low player count, which is unpleasant but understandable. > That’s not what stat checking is. It doesn’t matter about macro skill every champion uses macro skill no matter what. It’s about in fights, how you fight with these champions is you have more stats and ram your head against them till people die. > In a fight as aatrox you jump in, auto attack, and somebody died either you or them with very little input on either side. His skill shots actually didn’t matter a whole lot outside of the early game, it all came down to stat checking in the end. > > Diana at least has a combo she has to do, aatrox it honestly didn’t matter what you did you threw everything at the enemy and hope for the best And _because_ champs like old Aatrox lacked the outplay potential (on both sides!), macro was more important (relative to the other aspects of the game) than with a mechanical one. Again, I personally don't mind this, but it's a matter of subjective views, I'd say. Thank you for the civilized discussion, though.
: > I honestly think that the new Aatrox is not even a tad bit healthier than the previous one. These Combo-bruiser highly mechanical type of champions tend to have the problem of sub-par winrates because the majority of players can't actually handle them correctly, whereas the few that took the time to learn them are completely unstoppable because the champions are ridiculous if you're able to utilize their kit to its full extent. This is Yasuo/Irelia/Akali-esque design, and that is seriously unhealthy for the game, because a champion that can turn a completely unfavourable situation into a multikill through mechanics alone kind of eliminates tactical play to a degree. Aatrox has outplay potential... him killing you is skill based, while you killing him is also skill based. That’s how the game should work, skill vs skill. Old Aatrox didn’t, you jump in and either kill them or die depending on how strong you are. And if a champion turns an unfavourable situation into a multikill it wasn’t an unfavourable situation was it. > The old Aatrox had a splitpush/snowball niche and very clear cut counterplay, and wasn't nearly as stat-check-heavy as stuff like Diana is, I think. I can see why they'd rework a buggy and honestly toxic mess like Mordekaiser, but I feel like they would have been fine just releasing reworked Aatrox as a new champion, and apart from the revive, which doesn't even exist anymore, nobody would really have noticed the outstanding similarities with old Aatrox. A splitpush snowball niche shared by at least 3 other champions... of your niche isn’t your own there’s no point to it. The idea of niches are to prevent champions from forcing other champions out of the meta, why play X champion when Y champion does the same job better. When aatrox, jax, yi, abd trynd all had the exact same niche and playstyle it makes all of them suffer, only one can be viable at a time. That was one of the issues aatrox had, why he got the rework (among other things), he wasn’t healthy existing among them. He was also more stat checky than Diana... entireky due to how his W worked. With Diana you burst or die and that’s cause she’s an assasin bruiser hybrid with the tools of neither, aatrox if you have more stats and don’t get cc’d your immortal, if you have less stats you die. It wasn’t healthy. ___ New aatrox is infinitely more healthy than Old Aatrox... the fact that he’s had a lot less issues so far than what Old Aatrox had proves that... being a high skill champion isn’t a bad thing and what he is doing isn’t unhealthy.
> [{quoted}](name=swampert919,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=8uARrEmQ,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-18T14:51:11.319+0000) > > Aatrox has outplay potential... him killing you is skill based, while you killing him is also skill based. That’s how the game should work, skill vs skill. > Old Aatrox didn’t, you jump in and either kill them or die depending on how strong you are. The game needs varying degrees of complexity within its champion pool and since riot tends to go more on the skill-heavy side recently, a more stat-checky champion (which, in a way, is impossible without skillshots, (and old aatrox actually had two)) wouldn't be so bad. Besides, there's still the strategic skill involved in getting to these sufficient stats, such as, wave manipulation, setting up solo kills, getting picks, overall just understanding the game, and this just becomes more important with mechanically less demanding champions. This is also critically important for people to actually learn these aspects of the game, if no simple champions and only options like current Aatrox existed, players trying to improve their macro might only be capable of focussing on their mechanics since the player is more directly connected to this aspect of the game. And it's obvious we shouldn't just have Annie and Garen here, a more varied field of champions is still good for this. Stat-checky doesn't necessarily equal bad, these champions just require/emphasize different skillsets to maneuver and beat. > [{quoted}](name=swampert919,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=8uARrEmQ,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-18T14:51:11.319+0000) >And if a champion turns an unfavourable situation into a multikill it wasn’t an unfavourable situation was it. There are plenty of Irelia/Akali clips (even proplay, mind you) that prove this wrong, wherein the aforementioned champions have no real sufficient strategical advantage and should just die or be unable to create sufficient pressure, but end up killing or forcing away several people on their own, even though this doesn't fit within the strategic framework of the game. And don't tell me Proplayer 1 is just this much more mechanically proficient than 2 to 5. These champions allow the person piloting them to influence a given situation so much more than the enemy can, that equal skill (under the premise that whoever is piloting them has "learned" the champion in specific) ends up being a disadvantage to their opponent. Especially Akali here, with proplay proof, but Azir used to suffer heavily from the same problem, etc. These champions have ludicrous winrate differences between beginners and mains/players who use them often, to the point where it is simply unhealthy for the game due to these characters simply having too much outplay potential. I still find Aatrox quite mild in this regard, but even so, the general direction is not healthy, and this has, as far as I know, come to be a relatively widely accepted consensus among the community (especially with Yasuo/Akali, again). > [{quoted}](name=swampert919,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=8uARrEmQ,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-18T14:51:11.319+0000) >A splitpush snowball niche shared by at least 3 other champions As if current Aatrox's role of diving the backline and either pressuring out their key cooldowns and/or just outright killing them (not even going over how good he was at applying that pressure with his revive, especially before his mini rework this season), even if you count in the drain tank aspect of it, wasn't also filled by Rhaast, Warwick, arguably new Swain, and so on. It is completely usual for a game with this many champions to have overlapping roles and playstyles and this is fine and just offers more wanted variety as long as they don't feel identical (which, in my opinion, they don't). > [{quoted}](name=swampert919,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=8uARrEmQ,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-18T14:51:11.319+0000) >He was also more stat checky than Diana Simply due to being a splitpush champion, Aatrox used to offer up more skill opportunities (macro-skill, that is), than Diana could, since all she does is wait for key cooldowns to be blown and then pray she has enough damage, whereas old Aatrox had 2 skillshots that could mechanically determine the outcome of the fight with whoever he was pushing the sidelane into (although, admittedly, as the game progressed, low impact skillshots) and had to go through a lot more strategic consideration.
: Keeping the playstyle the same is a secondary objective, the primary objective is to make the kit healthier, when the issue stems from the thing that gives the champion their playstyle that means that the playstyle has to go. Namely the W in this case... it wasn’t actually healthy, his focus on it meant that he had a toxic relationship with attack speed which made balance impossible, and it was the source of his stat check and drain tank issues. Once the W is ditched no matter what you come up with it ain’t gonna be aatrox, his identity was too closely linked to it. It’s a sucky reality but every time 1 person plays aatrox 5 people have to play against it... this means that making it healthy and fair comes at the same priority if not higher than keeping his playstyle... riot have to cater to as many people as possible and every champion’s community is a minority even popular ones, riot have to do what’s necessary. Like I said it sucks but it’s a hard choice Riot have to make, do you preserve a playstyle in exchange for game health, or preserve game health in exchange for killing a champion... and it is a hard choice, remember no matter how much we love a champion there’s someone at riot who loves them more... I mean it’s practically their baby... and it ain’t like aatrox was the first to loose his playstyle nor is he gonna be the last.
I honestly think that the new Aatrox is not even a tad bit healthier than the previous one. These Combo-bruiser highly mechanical type of champions tend to have the problem of sub-par winrates because the majority of players can't actually handle them correctly, whereas the few that took the time to learn them are completely unstoppable because the champions are ridiculous if you're able to utilize their kit to its full extent. This is Yasuo/Irelia/Akali-esque design, and that is seriously unhealthy for the game, because a champion that can turn a completely unfavourable situation into a multikill through mechanics alone kind of eliminates tactical play to a degree. The old Aatrox had a splitpush/snowball niche and very clear cut counterplay, and wasn't nearly as stat-check-heavy as stuff like Diana is, I think. I can see why they'd rework a buggy and honestly toxic mess like Mordekaiser, but I feel like they would have been fine just releasing reworked Aatrox as a new champion, and apart from the revive, which doesn't even exist anymore, nobody would really have noticed the outstanding similarities with old Aatrox.
: {{item:3748}} is good with HP items {{item:3074}} is good when you buy AD items and works perfect with red smite
> [{quoted}](name=TheToysTracker,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=n1ffOLJb,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-07-17T08:52:24.580+0000) > > {{item:3748}} is good with HP items > {{item:3074}} is good when you buy AD items and works perfect with red smite Well, the thing is that to my understanding, the rest of the build hasn't changed. Additionally, I've noticed that Irelia, for instance, still tends to go Titanic even though her build is very similar to Camille's, who suddenly builds Ravenous most of the time.
Rioter Comments
: The problem is right now, outfarming your enemy jungler means little. Falling behind in jungle cs isn't punishing enough, whereas more lane pressure means a much higher chance of winning the game given how short games tend to be these days. Of course if riot finally made the choice between ganking and farming meaningful, that would be a different story. But right now, unless you completely destroy the enemy jungler in farm before level 6, it just won't set him behind far enough. Not even 3buffing your opponent is enough anymore these days, one successful gank and they're right back in it. And even if they don't find that gank, if you don't gank lanes yourself while they're behind, they can just wait and get back in terms of XP and pressure equalizes again. However, if you really do manage to get your team to avoid ganks and can stop your lanes from falling behind too far, you could try playing yi or jax.
Yeah, I've 3buffed someone recently, and actually had way higher cs and KP in general and they ended up outleveling me, lol. But thank you for the detailed response! {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}}
: So, you're trying to have no impact on the map as the jungler? Play a different role. Support would fit that playstyle much better. It doesn't matter that u don't die if the enemy jungler is using your lack of pressure to win every lane and outfarm you in the meantime. Kayn needs to get ganks off early to get his transformation. The longer it takes you to get that the weaker he becomes compared to the opponent jungler. Sure he has a relatively decent late game, but you're never going to get to that stage if the enemy jungler ends it by 25 mins. There is no good jungler with a passive playstyle. If you're going to play passive early game, it means you're completely waiving your influence on the game and relying on your team to survive 4v5 until you get to a point where you're farmed enough to be useful. While you might win most games where you get to late game, you will lose many games before you even get there because you're completely abandoning your team. In the current jungle meta where there are basically no repercussions for falling behind in cs, early pressure is your main way of impacting the game. Therefore if you don't want to gank and be active early, play a different role. If you're determined to keep playing this way and don't mind losing however, here's your boy. Tree. Thing. Whatever. {{champion:427}}
I get what you're saying there, but I almost always outfarm the enemy jungler, actually. It's just that I mostly play PvE, in a way. It barely happens to me that the enemy jungler actually wins every lane and such. It's more that I'm denying them pretty hard but really trying not to die myself so I just end up in these games where both junglers have like 20% KP. So would this be somewhat acceptable in, say, a different jungle meta? But yeah, I definitely like playing supp, too, because my micro sucks and I feel like it's more macro-focussed.
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I meant builds **I can actually use**, my heart isn't strong enough for the memes in this one.
BaconTits (EUNE)
: How would you describe Riot Balance Team by only using 1 word?
Successful (considering the sheer size of the game's playerbase and all, they can't be abysmal, huh?)
Zyzyx (EUW)
: Here you go: https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Aatrox/
Yeah, that's the thing. The main reason for this post is pretty much that there's so much competition between Trinity-Hydra and Botrk-Cleaver so I don't know what to pick.
Rioter Comments
Eveninn (EUW)
: If you aren't a DPS mage it's usually not worth to commit onto a frontliner, just keep hitting what's in range while keeping important CDs for whenever a priority target misspositions.
Soo what if they don't misposition? That was my problem, it always felt like I had to put myself in a lot of danger to be able to deal meaningful damage (seeing as their frontline was unkillable even with all the magic pen I had), so how do you play a mage in this situation?
Rioter Comments
: > So am I building her wrong or does she just fall off? She can still oneshot if she lands a full combo, but because Taliyah hasn't got a combat ultimate later on in the game her damage is going to fall off compared to mages who have four damage abilities. As a result you really need to be able to land her combos to get full use of our her. One of the main reasons you'd pick Taliyah is to get your team mates ahead rather than yourself, so definitely consider doing that through her powerful roaming passive. This would enable you to deal with the damage you (don't?) deal, since you're providing that damage in the lead you've given your team mates. as for W, its' just really hard to land in general and there's no other tips I can offer other than practice. > Also, how in god's name do you hit a Zed/ Talon/ Fizz with it when they're in your face? You kinda don't, those champions are meant to just dumpster you unfortunately. Talon is a little easier because his in fight mobility if his Ghostblade is down is a little more limited unless he ults, but even then, Zed/Talon/Fizz are designed to do well into Taliyah.
So am I right in thinking that Taliyah is played kind of like Aurelion or TF in the sense that she should try to make stuff happen on the map (with her ult), especially botlane? Also, if that's the case, how much does she really need the ult to effectively gank? Thanks for the informative reply btw! :)
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Antenora (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Hopy,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=NjEVYiWy,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2017-06-04T12:32:56.373+0000) > > Well yeah, I think taking away her late game damage kind of takes away what an adc is trying to do. Now you might argue that Cait's simply there to make the enemy botlane fall behind, but from my own experience i can say that they'll catch up rather quickly due to cait generally falling of mid game. So taking away one of her opportunities to keep/ use her lead was wrong. Imo, they should've rather nerfed her early game a bit so that it's simply more unlikely to get a lead. Or, as you said, they could nerf her traps. Maybe increasing their mana cost with frequent use like kassadin's ult is the right way to go. As said, just my humble opinion though :) She can't be strong all stages of the game. The nerf was justified and deserved.
> [{quoted}](name=Antenora,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=NjEVYiWy,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2017-06-04T13:12:16.825+0000) > > She can't be strong all stages of the game. > > The nerf was justified and deserved. Definitely, but they nerfed the wrong part of her. They want her to be dependant on her W, but you can't make a champion whose foundation are solely 5 traps you put on the ground. Even though you can continue cc-chains with them and all, I think she's still too dependant on the “enemy's intelligence“ so to say.
Eodin (EUW)
: How are Newbies supposed to learn the Game without masteries and runes?
To be honest, there's like a million tutorial videos for League on Youtube that are made specifically for complete newbies. However, they still have to have enough interest in the game to be able to afford their runes. But it's kinda silly to make them cost something anyway because nobody buys those for RP, so they just drive away players with that system.
Rstonius (EUW)
: So let us talk about Caitlyn and the recent nerf that she got.
Well yeah, I think taking away her late game damage kind of takes away what an adc is trying to do. Now you might argue that Cait's simply there to make the enemy botlane fall behind, but from my own experience i can say that they'll catch up rather quickly due to cait generally falling of mid game. So taking away one of her opportunities to keep/ use her lead was wrong. Imo, they should've rather nerfed her early game a bit so that it's simply more unlikely to get a lead. Or, as you said, they could nerf her traps. Maybe increasing their mana cost with frequent use like kassadin's ult is the right way to go. As said, just my humble opinion though :)
TTekkers (EUW)
: It's the same issues as ever :) You need to go grab safe waves, I rarely push past the river and if alone only grab a couple of waves before disappearing again. You need to be able to see the other team. Try to convince your team to help ward - it's the only way to know that a wave is safe to farm. Hope your teammates aren't using ping mute, because you want to be able to communicate to your team that you aren't with them, you're farming the side lane. ___ As for pros, they'll time the fights and engages to be when everyone is present, and play safely when they're not. That's how everyone has massive farm and is in every fight - they're coordinated.
Yup, I guess vision is my big problem in this case :) Thanks for the reply :)
: Hi, It's good to **freeze** a lane when the enemy minions are at your own turret. To freeze even better. Just don't let the minions stand in **towerrange**. You have **to tank** (with your support) the damage until the next wave is here, just do that for a while and the enemy won't get the cs, while you get even more cs (and get a cs lead). If they do try to get cs, **ask your jungler to come** (ask before to clear botside of jungle so that the jungler is able to come even faster). When they are too far from middle of lane, just fight (kill'em/waste their spells/let them b) and then push all waves until minions are at their tower, and go b. **That gives a huge advantage, massive gold, a pressured lane, and they lose xp+gold.** When you are back in lane, you didn't miss that much cs It's also easier to farm while pushing, since that doesn't give turretdamage, if you don't know how to cs properly with turret. In that case, don't forget to ward and be aware that the enemy jungler could be bot. Also watch the enemies. If they act **strange** (normal: not AA'ing minions, now: AA minions, or they walk to you), you are most of time getting ganked in a few seconds, so return to turrets in that case and go b if you are (getting) low or have much gold to buy some cool stuff! I hope that this long post helps you a bit! If you have troubles with cs'ing, try to cs with Miss Fortune/Ez and use their abilities as well (both Q), since that gives you an extra AA **(in Practice Tool)**, they are in my opinion the best adc to learn to farm. And Miss Fortune is extremely strong! So a good soloQ option!
Yeah, I tend to do these things with lane-dominant adcs like cait, but what I find to be difficult is laning as adcs that have a weak early game like tristana. I recently had a game where I was the one who got zoned because as tristana it's rather difficult to survive against a lucian-zyra lane I'd say ^^ However, if we wanted a gank we'd have to engage them for our jungler to get past their (constantly) warded brushes. But when we engaged we literally blew up in under 2 seconds, I was wondering if anyone has some advice for that situation :) Thanks for the reply though :)
: As long as your map awareness is good you will know when it is safe to take their jungle farm. You have to constantly keep an eye on the map. If you see their toplaner top, their jungler too, and their midlaner mid, you know you won't get ganked for some time so you can play aggro. If you dont see anyone and even have the slightest doubt of their whereabouts, play safe.
That's true, thanks :)
Potchikir (EUW)
: the more positive u are to ur support the more he will help u tell him to ward ur side of the map and if ur nice to him he will prob do it play meta adc's like 1.caitlyn(alot of mobility ranges and traps) 2.lucian(can move alot with his dashes) 3.xayah(can stun enemy's and use her ult in difficult situations) 4.twitch(goes invisible) 5.draven(movement speed boost and cc) their all pretty safe in total and that one of the reasons their meta
I used to basically play cait all the time before the runaans-headshot nerf. I don't like her very much now though, but I'll try out the others, thanks :)
: Pro players rotate the lanes aiming for the carries to get the farm. In soloQ, whoever can grabs it - jungle taxes etc... That's not possible to reach 10 cs a min in every single game, and most of the time it's better to go down to 7 or 8 if that means proper positionning, rotations and so on.
Well yeah, that's a different perspective, I'll think about it :)
Zurkrem (EUW)
: Another thing you could do is steal jungle camps from the enemy whenever you have control of one of their quadrants.
Possibly, yeah. I'd prefer not to be alone in the enemy's jungle though. But I'll try! Thanks for the reply :)
ChiTenshi (EUW)
: I recommend a hoe.
Well, I do have a supp, but Im not that rude to them ;) Thanks for the reply :)
: I solve that problem with my Vayne. If a fighter comes to shut you down, you shut him down instead.
Well yeah, that works i guess, although I mostly play Tristana, but I might try her out :) Thanks for the reply :)
: ADC's are easy to kill when they are alone. You should coordinate with your support more. Also warn your team when you go sidelanes to farm. And don't stay there more than 2 wave if you are alone. You should work with your team as much as possible. And you should know when is the right time to go farm. It's not easy to get used to it. But I'm sure you can do it ^^
Well yeah, I guess communication is key especially in soloq :) Thanks for the reply :)
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Hopy

Level 97 (EUW)
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