: > [{quoted}](name=RoninDefender,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=2MPoOHt5,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-10-28T18:56:54.175+0000) > > Is it nature of provision match or is it caused my client hold my rank to prevent smurfing? It's the nature of provision matches. During the provision you will get like 50-80 LP for a win and don't lose any if you lose your games, so the provisional rank is your lower border for getting placed. Naturally you will face higher up opponents that way.
Thanks for the answer. However she never played in gold. So this can mean her old MR now correspond to gold. So new gold is old silver?
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=RoninDefender,realm=EUW,application-id=N9uP9Byj,discussion-id=GAHFFoE6,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2019-02-09T13:11:36.458+0000) > > Thank you for your kind and informative answer. It is really a pleasure to read that. > > As I said to Èclair, I see that you only see this as a game and I respect that. I also respect your experience you played both ways and you say this is more fun/fair. > > I only don't agree with the e-sport part. If there is a sport then every level of it is a sport. It doesn't need to professional (get paid). > > As an example, I was a licensed Karate-ka, I have never been paid for that. But I entered some local tournament even won bronze medals (yeah there bronze too :) at least I see silver here I must be grateful :) ) My sparring partner won the European Championship. I also played as a goalkeeper. Never Paid too. But we won the local championship. I even get some MVP. :) > > So I say that you don't need to be faker, Caps, Messi or Bruce Lee to make a sport. This is also a solution to the problems of trolling, intentional feeding etc. > > I thought ranked as that but you both say it is not. So this is ok for me... But for the future of the "sport", there must be this area. Maybe the clash can offer that. > > Thanks again for your comment. It was really a pleasure. It's nice to share and discuss opinions in a civilized mature way. Once again I see it as a game and casual competitive because this is what it is. As Eclair said: "Some niche tournaments you can find on-line do have something called "fair bracket" but I wouldn't call a tourney for 5k RP total an e-sport event (even tho technically it is)." This tournaments are amateur eSport as in your Karate-ka example, while rank is not, rank is just a friendly casual game which has a ladder to give a sensation of competitive play. I don't think there's another sport to compare with League ranked/eSport because in professional sport (LEC for League) or amateurs but still competitive sport (as in your example) (Local tournaments that you play for RP in League case) rules/scoring/system is created for few participants 10/30/100 and etch participant/team can be manually reviewed by an referee/commission, while ranked system is created to be general fair for millions of competitors in a server and this can cause problem if you take some individual examples that can feel unfairly for them, or be unfairly in their cases since system si creat to be fair as a general rule for millions not possible to be mold for each case. So I can't think as any example in real life to meet this criteria except one thing the Constitution, laws in each countries are made to be fair, non discriminatory, for millions of citizens, it's impossible to be made for each individual. I am sure in you life experience you found out that laws are some time unfair if you take them for personal case and not generic so that's why a moderation by jungles lawyers, prosecutors is in need to judge the individual, and also that's flawed since each individual its different and they still apply the general letter of the law. And even if the judge give sentence and judge _by the spirit and letter of the law_ so judging in _the spirit of the law_ that's the case to apply for each individual depending of his attitude in court, his history of crimes etc, still they are bound by the_ letter of the law_. Anyway I played all tests of Clash and that indeed feel more competitive and more real to a sport example, but still being an automated system for hundred of thousands of teams it can have so many flaws, it can be abused, and can make mistakes. ********************** What you are looking for are those amateur tournaments, but sadly I don't like them because RIOT seems to not display info about them properly, it's all shady and not transparency, and seem that you are at the hand of organizer so many abuses can happen since RIOT seems to not get involved into them just support them with RP or not even that! So if you google search them you don't knwo if some are scam sites that ask for your logins or if are legit, don't knwo, I try to search for them on oficial RIOT pages and nearly found any clear transparent info, like a list with them to knwo which are trusted. Also some players complained that they didn't receive the RP prize for mounts which should be a matter of days to gift some RP, Organizers gift from their accounts (or random accounts) in which you need to be friends for period of time to receive RP, also shady since if I accept a RP prize form an organizer and then that person decide to Chargebacks RIOT ban my account also not only his! So for those tournaments to be trusted I see that RIOT should be involved more, should make official clear/transparent on official pages wich organizer is truste/supported by them and the RP prize should not be given by an random organizer account but by riot themself after the organizer provide a list with the winners to RIOT. (otherwise I see it shady and weird and I feel that can get me banned)
Again it is a pleasure. Respect is hard to find in this community. So I am thanking alot :) > As Eclair said: "Some niche tournaments you can find on-line do have something called "fair bracket" but I wouldn't call a tourney for 5k RP total an e-sport event (even tho technically it is)." These tournaments are amateur eSport as in your Karate-ka example, while rank is not, rank is just a friendly casual game which has a ladder to give a sensation of competitive play. Sadly it is not the same thing because of these tournaments I told also part of the main tournaments. So if this game will develop as a real professional sport the must be sub and subdivision where people can play seriously without trolls etc. You say that ranked has not the mission of this but there is rank called challenger. So this means even you are in Iron 4 you are in the league and you are part of the "e-sport" even at the lowest position... There are two main problems here. 1 most people don't see like that. 2 this is also a business for Riot. So it is very hard to balance between sport and computer game... As a final word, I hope this brainstorming read by Riot People. I believe and hope that they are doing their best. Thanks again for sharing your ideas. I learned and understood a lot. :)
Èclair (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=RoninDefender,realm=EUW,application-id=N9uP9Byj,discussion-id=GAHFFoE6,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-09T15:19:55.771+0000) > > I'm not an exceptionally good player too. You said you play 150 and become plat. I can play only 35~45 match I end up silver... I highly doubt you can reach Platinum within 115 games from the point you're currently in. > So rank is directly proportional to the amount of play. (probably to a certain rank) This is simple math and anyone can calculate the number of the match he/she needs to play to be a certain rank. No. There are high rank people who play from fresh account and reach Diamond within less than 50 games. There are people who are stuck in low elo for entirety of their existence. Just look out for people with veteran badges. You can find plenty just in Silver alone. > So this system gives you always balanced matches and lets you rise constantly. Which is fun but also if you see the pattern playing ranked loses its intent. I have no clue how did you come up to that conclusion honestly.
> I highly doubt you can reach Platinum within 115 games from the point you're currently in. Of course I cant because I didnt played for years :) . But in this system you cant go up there that fast too. because you will be playing plat player to lvl up in silver if you are constantly wining. > No. There are high rank people who play from fresh account and reach Diamond within less than 50 games. There are people who are stuck in low elo for entirety of their existence. Just look out for people with veteran badges. You can find plenty just in Silver alone. Not in this match making system... > I have no clue how did you come up to that conclusion honestly. It is basic calculus and statistic.
Èclair (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=RoninDefender,realm=EUW,application-id=N9uP9Byj,discussion-id=GAHFFoE6,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-02-09T12:32:31.705+0000) > > Lp increase decreases according to your wins or losses. So matchmaking directly affects your LP. This is simple. No. LP gain/loss is measured based on your MMR and average MMR of players in your current division. While WR contributes to the MMR, it's not something you can use interchangeably. They simply aren't the same. > So having a guarantee %50 win rate is nice because nobody wants alway to lose. You don't have a guaranteed win rate. 50% WR comes from the fact that once the game puts you with people around your level statistically your chance of winning is 50/50. On top of that you can sit around 50%WR but still have good LP gain _(around +25 and -15_). > This makes iron bronze silver rank meaningless. Because if the system arranges %50 win rate and if you win you gain 20~25 LP and if you lose you lost 17~20 LP so becoming to silver is just related the number of the matches you play. If you have that time then you can play the game really at silver+ and gold. I spend more time in Plat elo than Bronze/Silver/Gold elo. And why was that? Because I earned my rank, saw it was bad and stopped playing ranked entirely. I forgot about ranked queue and played only normals for quite some time. Even though I played casually with friends and just for fun my decision making skill improved, my game-knowledge expanded and I learned a thing or two about my position of choice. And then I went ranked because I thought that the seasonal rewards were nice. Got Gold. Stopped playing ranked for a season. Focused on playing normals. Went back to ranked and finally ground my way up to Diamond last season within 150 games or so. I'm not exceptionally good player. I just sank enough time into this game to know how to play around certain level. Sure, serious grinding is one way to earn your rank. Another way is to just practice and learn until you become good so you can make your way to the top within few less matches played. Both paths are time-consuming but this is the nature of the competitive play. > I only don't agree with the e-sport part. If there is a sport then every level of it is a sport. It doesn't need to professional (get paid). As an example, I was a licensed Karate-ka, I have never been paid for that. By this definition I'm an e-sport player as well because I participated in an online tournament. But this definition isn't applicable to the e-sports at all and I'm not an e-sport player by any stretch of imagination. > But for the future of the "sport", there must be this area. Maybe the clash can offer that. Crash is just glorified 5v5 SR with some mediocre rewards for partaking in the bracket. Not only that it simply doesn't work and probably never will.
> No. LP gain/loss is measured based on your MMR and average MMR of players in your current division. While WR contributes to the MMR, it's not something you can use interchangeably. They simply aren't the same. One is the function of the other so they are correlated. I am not saying they are the same. I am saying they are related. It is obvious and simple. > You don't have a guaranteed win rate. 50% WR comes from the fact that once the game puts you with people around your level statistically your chance of winning is 50/50. On top of that you can sit around 50%WR but still have good LP gain (around +25 and -15). It is a guaranteed win rate. If you lose some then you will play with low ranks so you can win again. As you see in my example a Gold 4 play with Iron and Bronze then win... And he gains LP in Gold league. So him being Gold is a delusion. He is just a guy played a lot. So if the system guarantees you a %50 win chance/rate. As you play much, you will be a higher rank. Your skill only helps you to rise faster... So there are tons of 12-year-old "Yasou" players in every rank. I'm not an exceptionally good player too. You said you play 150 and become plat. I can play only 35~45 match I end up silver... So rank is directly proportional to the amount of play. (probably to a certain rank) This is simple math and anyone can calculate the number of the match he/she needs to play to be a certain rank. So this system gives you always balanced matches and lets you rise constantly. Which is fun but also if you see the pattern playing ranked loses its intent.
: > [{quoted}](name=RoninDefender,realm=EUW,application-id=N9uP9Byj,discussion-id=GAHFFoE6,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-02-09T07:03:59.440+0000) > > First of all, I am a casual player. I am a 35 year old man married. My wife also plays the game. We see League of Legends as an e-sport and a family activity. we even teach our daughter (4 year old) how to play. We watch all the matches at weekends... (even she comment about the matches like "why are you leaving your lane atrox ..." :) > Hi, I am 37 yo and player since game was released > So as a summary I don't have high expectation on my rank progress but the game is important and have a place in my life. So I generally play ranked (If I am not testing a new rune or a hero) > > Last night after 8 matches win series I had a very hard/bad game, I wondered about the rival team ranks and when I looked I was shocked. There was a Gold 4 and Silver 2 while my team has only bronze and Iron players, our highest was B2. So I read about the matchmaking system and I found it very very unfair. (shared the text below.*) > > It says that "You’re winning a lot, and the matchmaker is placing you against stronger opponents. A Silver player pushing for Gold should expect to see higher-tier players in their games. It means you’re winning more than you’re losing, and it means the matchmaker is starting to suspect that you’re worthy of higher placement. If you’re on a big win streak, you may even start to see opponents several divisions above you." > > So If I am winning I have to play higher rank opponents... Ok so this means I am also worthy of their rank... First of all things are a bit messy at start of the season so things are not so bad after mmr it get settel and people rise/drop where they belong, Second the game want to keep you at 50% win rate and if you manage to go above that then it means you are worthy to climb. (**Better explication from Tarolock (EUNE)** _That's the RESULT of a balanced matchmaking... you win a lot your win rate goes up which means you'll get matched with more skilled opponents and after a while they are so much better that you start to lose fights and your win rate goes back down, after enough matches your win rate will stay around 50% which means you are matched with ppl who have equal skills so your chance at winning is the same as losing vs them_) > > Lets think about a football team in 3th division of its league. Winning matches constantly. Then UEFA came and say: "ok you are a good team so you will now have matches with premier league teams and your league point will be determined by that. But you are still in the 3th division." This is nonsence but it is happening to us. > Well here is tricky, normally league is a team game but the divisions/mmr are individual attributes that you win or lose base on team success, so it's from start very hard to make it perfect or even good and its flawed form start! But its not other solution, since many players prefer to play solo/duo not with teams, will be weird to allow rank only for teams, that's why RIOT made some sort of compromise to make a ladder for solo players to compare their skills to others players in the server but all that evolving about a team game! Because of this you need to look at the mmr not like in team sports like football but as in individual sport as in tennis, they have some kind of mmr ladder with points not divisions. In tennis you can be no1 with x amount of points or be number 200 or lower with y amount of points. But when you go in a competition as a number 200 and qualify and keep winning in the end you will play best of 64, 32, 16, quarters, final, vs top 10 players. Also those example are bended since there's no comparison since this is casual gaming for millions of players in a server not professional sport (and I will get to esport question later) > The MMR system creates a secret second Rank system where no one can see your success and your visible rank means nothing. > > There is 2 basic solution I can think of... > > 1) Remove the League system. Don't give us gold, silver ... ranks. Just give us visible MMR so everybody will know how good they are. (But I know you won't like that because the league system liked by most of the players.) > In season 1 and 2 was like this, you just climbed and dropped numbers you had lets say 1355elo, win a game get 21elo so you rise to 1376elo. Also was an server oficial ladder so you can see your place among others at that elo you were like in position 1.650.564 (just an example not accurate). Well that system gave no motivations for players to win and no reason to feel bad if they lose because if you were 1355elo, win a game get 21elo so you rise to 1376elo feel absolutely nothing, just a random number. Also if you lost 21elo and drop to 1334elo again not so big deal, just a random number. Also rising or droping 1milionxxxxxx place to 1milionxxxxxy feel same! But divisions give more satisfaction and more feel of competitions if you rise from silver to gold, and more sense of disappointment if you drop from gold to silver. > 2) Don't let people have matches across the leagues. (League means that... :) ) > > You say "we do try to make sure all teams have a 50 +/-1% chance of victory" but this is not a way of sports thinking. Then in worlds don't match NA teams with Korean Teams because they never have "a 50 +/-1% chance of victory". Or match Fnatic with a gold ranked team because they are having a losing series... > Players are matched across divisions because like you said the mmr, so divisions are just a visual stuff (compromise) to make people feel more motivate/rewarding to climb and more affected if they drop. What matter in matching with/against is the mmr and even that mmr its not accurate since it represent individual skills but base on team performance (witch is a flaw from start) But there's no other better/fair what to do it since it's hard to represent an individual skills base on team performance, if they make it like some players ask to win/lose mmr base on individual in game performance (kda, vision score, objectives taken, etc) will be very very bad since players will start hunting down stats (some already do to get -S, S, S+, for chests or mastery) and not participate to the team victory. So team victory is all that should matter but in same time is hard to give somebody a fairly skill assessments base on team win/lose. But think at it this way: - if you are very good, much better than the division you are in you will use those skills to help your team to victory - some players are diamond, master, challengers so is clear that if you deserve you'll climb no matter how flawed the system is since it's impossible to make it perfect as individual ladder for a team game. > As a result, Riot must decide if it is a game or e-sports. > Rank games are not e-sport nobody said it is, I don't knwo why you have this impression or why some players take rank so serious when in fact it's a video game mod for casual players to have fun but difference than normal games is they made a ladder system to give a sort of competitive feeling. > If this is just a computer game then MMR is purely right. But if it is e-sports, we must play according to the division regardless of our win rate. > eSport is the competition in which Professional players participate not the Rank games (solo/duo or flex). Just because a game has a professional sport does not make the game itself Professional sport. Football have profesional side, but it's a casual sport for people to enjoy. One thing is not related to the other. Think about it like this, you make a competition at football between coworkers maybe you work in a big company with many workers or make competitions between departments or whatever, or a neighborhood competitions. This competitions will have a ladder system and competition system to decide the best team, while you play it you take it serious since you want to prove your building/office/whatever is the best, you feel competitive, you give your best and some time can be frustration, anger, banter, even some swearing trow to opposite team or even fellow players! But this is NOT professional football! even if its competitive in the end you are all coworkers, neighbours, friends and in the end you all shake hands and be friends no matter who win or lose (and the joy was the participations/games/competitions not the result even a lose its a bit sour and the other office/building will make fun of you all year) and no matter if on the duration of tournament some swearing and bad words were said. All it matter to keep honorable behavior and to keep the cursing, banter, anger to a reasonable friendly limit. Like this rank games should be seen, as a friendly competition between players on same server, that share same hobby/passion the video games and League, its competitive, it's a competition with a ladder system, but it's not professional eSport where professional players play in professional teams! And while as in football example we can get angry, frustrated and throw some cursing around, we should keep all in reasonable limits as in the end after the game we should all be friends! Professional sport as football or esport League, players are employees of a company that are paid salary to be part of a team and play the game. A team is a company like other that need to make profit, that have employees as accountants, hr, lawyers, supporting stuff, and the workers (players in this case). They hire players to win games (which bring profit) and they need to get profit or they get bankrupt it's not fun hobby gaming it's a serious business. Rank games are played by causal players not professionals (that get paid) so treat it as it is casual competitive not proportional eSport. > I hope the best for the future of the game... Same to you,
Thank you for your kind and informative answer. It is really a pleasure to read that. As I said to Èclair, I see that you only see this as a game and I respect that. I also respect your experience you played both ways and you say this is more fun/fair. I only don't agree with the e-sport part. If there is a sport then every level of it is a sport. It doesn't need to professional (get paid). As an example, I was a licensed Karate-ka, I have never been paid for that. But I entered some local tournament even won bronze medals (yeah there bronze too :) at least I see silver here I must be grateful :) ) My sparring partner won the European Championship. I also played as a goalkeeper. Never Paid too. But we won the local championship. I even get some MVP. :) So I say that you don't need to be faker, Caps, Messi or Bruce Lee to make a sport. This is also a solution to the problems of trolling, intentional feeding etc. I thought ranked as that but you both say it is not. So this is ok for me... But for the future of the "sport", there must be this area. Maybe the clash can offer that. Thanks again for your comment. It was really a pleasure.
Èclair (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=RoninDefender,realm=EUW,application-id=N9uP9Byj,discussion-id=GAHFFoE6,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-02-09T07:03:59.440+0000) > > Last night after 8 matches win series I had a very hard/bad game, I wondered about the rival team ranks and when I looked I was shocked. There was a Gold 4 and Silver 2 while my team has only bronze and Iron players, our highest was B2. So I read about the matchmaking system and I found it very very unfair. Then read all of it, not just a single paragraph explaining how it deals with inflated MMR. Ranks do not matter when it comes to in-game matchmaking. They are a visual representation of your standing in the ranking ladder. They do nothing but determine your LP loss/gain and promotions. You should not be talking about divisions when you want to discuss matchmaking. They are irrelevant to the topic at hand. > So If I am winning I have to play higher rank opponents... Ok so this means I am also worthy of their rank... No, it means you have to prove you can play on the level matchmaking puts you into. By this you're earning a lot of LP while losing far less than you would if playing around your average division level. Not only that, players of higher MMR usually can skip divisions without even going into their promos. You should also consider the fact that players you mentioned had low MMR score and were playing around your level despite having higher division. The season just started and players getting matched too high is sometimes a problem. It happens but is corrected within few games. > Lets think about a football team in 3th division of its league. The only thing I know about soccer is that it's nothing like League. This comparison does not work. They aren't even remotely comparable, especially that you're talking about the highest league while comparing it to casual League play. Apples to oranges, man. > The MMR system creates a secret second Rank system where no one can see your success and your visible rank means nothing. No, actually the division system is far more forgiving and transparent. For starters, the old ELO system demotion was working like that: * A player with 1900 ELO belongs to the platinum tier; * A player with 1899 ELO belongs to the gold tier. Funny enough, not that many players enjoyed getting demoted to lower tier because of the one point difference. Meanwhile a player in 2019 has a demotion shield upon entering new division, you cannot decay under certain tier and you usually have some window of failure when reaching the bottom, meaning you can lose few games when on 0LP and not fall to the tier below. Not to mention ELO decay was a thing while nowadays you can leave this game for a year or so and come back with your MMR completely intact _(been there, done that)_. _Bloody brilliant, isn't it? _ And its generally far easy to use. You don't have to scratch your head when game assigns you new number and google it just because you didn't memorize the values assigned to each ELO. You don't have to say _"oh I'm 1 250 ELO player"_, you just say _"I'm a Silver"_. Plus, getting a cool flashy banner representing your standing is far better than getting four signs number. But those are only perks that came with the Division system. The true reason for this change was the fact that **MMR just cannot be visible to the players to prevent exploitation**. If you know the MMR formula which was shown on the game-to-game basis, you know your game. It was quite popular for high ELO players to play as little as possible just because the MMR was not in their favour. You can't have a system based entirely on a number you can't show. > Don't let people have matches across the leagues. (League means that... :) ) This is probably the reason League tiers aren't called "leagues" but "divisions". > You say "we do try to make sure all teams have a 50 +/-1% chance of victory" but this is not a way of sports thinking. Then in worlds don't match NA teams with Korean Teams because they never have "a 50 +/-1% chance of victory". Or match Fnatic with a gold ranked team because they are having a losing series... Competitive and casual play are two different beasts that require different approach. Believe me when I say this is for the sake of casual play. You wouldn't want Riot to give you _competitive treatment_. You aren't Faker so don't expect they to treat you like you're going to win the worlds. > As a result, Riot must decide if it is a game or e-sports. Just a friendly reminder - you aren't playing on e-sport level. This is not an e-sport for you. This is a game. > If this is just a computer game then MMR is purely right. But if it is e-sports, we must play according to the division regardless of our win rate. Divisions aren't relevant to the high level e-sport scene. Some niche tournaments you can find on-line do have something called _"fair bracket"_ but I wouldn't call a tourney for 5k RP total an e-sport event _(even tho technically it is)_.
First of all, thank you for your time. > Then read all of it, not just a single paragraph explaining how it deals with inflated MMR. Ranks do not matter when it comes to in-game matchmaking. They are a visual representation of your standing in the ranking ladder. They do nothing but determine your LP loss/gain and promotions. You should not be talking about divisions when you want to discuss matchmaking. They are irrelevant to the topic at hand. Of course, I read all of it. I just shared some part to keep the text short. Lp increase decreases according to your wins or losses. So matchmaking directly affects your LP. This is simple. I see that you only see this as a game and I respect that. I also respect your experience you played both ways and you say this is more fun/fair. So having a guarantee %50 win rate is nice because nobody wants alway to lose. But just a note. This makes iron bronze silver rank meaningless. Because if the system arranges %50 win rate and if you win you gain 20~25 LP and if you lose you lost 17~20 LP so becoming to silver is just related the number of the matches you play. If you have that time then you can play the game really at silver+ and gold. I hope I would have that time... One more thing: > I only don't agree with the e-sport part. If there is a sport then every level of it is a sport. It doesn't need to professional (get paid). As an example, I was a licensed Karate-ka, I have never been paid for that. But I entered some local tournament even won bronze medals (yeah there bronze too :) at least I see silver here I must be grateful :) ) My sparring partner won the European Championship. I also played as a goalkeeper. Never Paid too. But we won the local championship. I even get some MVP. :) So I say that you don't need to be faker, Caps, Messi or Bruce Lee to make a sport. This is also a solution to the problems of trolling, intentional feeding etc. I thought ranked as that but you both say it is not. So this is ok for me... But for the future of the "sport", there must be this area. Maybe the clash can offer that. Thanks again for your comment.
yokometal (EUW)
: Has anyone else experienced really bad jitter or ping spikes for the last few days?
My friend has the same problem. I also wonder what is happening...
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