Asura (EUNE)
: The new Blizcrank and Renekton anti-shielding mechanics remove the whole shield, which is a lot more noticeable than, say, doing 300% more damage to shields with an onhit passive. I feel like the removal of the anti-shielding mechanics from Aatrox and Irelia was because they had to be nerfed, so Riot just decided to remove what felt "extra" in their kit, and wasn't that noticeable to the average player.
> [{quoted}](name=Asura,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=qf2pM0v5,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2019-07-21T18:13:44.989+0000) > > The new Blizcrank and Renekton anti-shielding mechanics remove the whole shield, which is a lot more noticeable than, say, doing 300% more damage to shields with an onhit passive. I feel like the removal of the anti-shielding mechanics from Aatrox and Irelia was because they had to be nerfed, so Riot just decided to remove what felt "extra" in their kit, and wasn't that noticeable to the average player. To most people it wasn't noticeable but to the ones frequently playing as or against them were keen enough to see it in play. Less so with Aatrox but greatly on Irelia. I do agree that they were removed due to being, as you said, ''extra'' parts in their kit. I just don't know why not give recognition to them for being the originals instead of the way they've done it now. Granted, Aatrox at the moment is still quite strong and Irelia's facing some more nerfs sometime soon (for the umphteenth time) so I presume that's why.
Hopy (EUW)
: Adding it to renekton frankly is completely ridiculous, whether he applies it in a skillful manner or not. The champion has been a top tier pick for quite a while now, and doesn't need it. It doesn't even need to be applied in a skillful manner, actually, it'd be fine to have a champion who is just good against shields by default (like it worked for Irelia, although she obviously doesn't need it either), rather than having the counterplay you specifically picked/drafted for(!) locked behind a skill wall. That wouldn't be strategic. You pick a counter, you get the counter unconditionally as the counter is balanced to be just that, and not a goodie on top of an already competely stable champion. Unfortunately, the latter is the case with Aatrox, Irelia and Renekton. Blitz should be fine, though, he offers the least out of any of the hook supports that are a staple for kill lanes (next to mage supports).
> [{quoted}](name=Hopy,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=qf2pM0v5,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-07-21T15:26:13.712+0000) > > Adding it to renekton frankly is completely ridiculous, whether he applies it in a skillful manner or not. The champion has been a top tier pick for quite a while now, and doesn't need it. It doesn't even need to be applied in a skillful manner, actually, it'd be fine to have a champion who is just good against shields by default (like it worked for Irelia, although she obviously doesn't need it either), rather than having the counterplay you specifically picked/drafted for(!) locked behind a skill wall. That wouldn't be strategic. You pick a counter, you get the counter unconditionally as the counter is balanced to be just that, and not a goodie on top of an already competely stable champion. Unfortunately, the latter is the case with Aatrox, Irelia and Renekton. > Blitz should be fine, though, he offers the least out of any of the hook supports that are a staple for kill lanes (next to mage supports). Didn't think the day would come where I understand all of your points and actually agree with them. On the boards. World's gone wack I tell you. As I said on some of the previous comments as well, I am perfectly fine with Blitz having it overall due to the low utility he offers. I just don't know if it should be on such a large AoE or if it could be applied somehow else in a more controlled manner.
: Does blitz R for example get rid of morg blackshield or does morg blackshield block the anti shield effect :thinking:
> [{quoted}](name=NewDragongamesnl,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=qf2pM0v5,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-07-20T13:09:27.057+0000) > > Does blitz R for example get rid of morg blackshield or does morg blackshield block the anti shield effect :thinking: As far as I'm aware it breaks the shield before applying any other effects.
VIT Laati (EUNE)
: Why it was removed from the Irelia and Aatrox rework? I wonder why.. Could it be, how especially the reworked Irelia at release, had enough stuff in her kit for two different champions? As why Renekton got it. Don't know, tbh. But Blitz getting it is quite obvious. Currently, there are 4 hookers played as a support. Blitz, Nautilus, Pyke and Thresh. Blitz is the weakest of the bunch. The shield breaking R is a nice little buff for him, which emphasizes his current "Get-hooked-and-be-punished" gameplay.
> [{quoted}](name=VIT Laati,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=qf2pM0v5,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-07-20T07:45:29.393+0000) > > Why it was removed from the Irelia and Aatrox rework? I wonder why.. Could it be, how especially the reworked Irelia at release, had enough stuff in her kit for two different champions? > > As why Renekton got it. Don't know, tbh. But Blitz getting it is quite obvious. > > Currently, there are 4 hookers played as a support. Blitz, Nautilus, Pyke and Thresh. Blitz is the weakest of the bunch. The shield breaking R is a nice little buff for him, which emphasizes his current "Get-hooked-and-be-punished" gameplay. As I said in my original post, we all know what Irelia was like after her rework. The point of it all isn't to talk about the balance of how she was back then, the point is why that the mechanics were removed from the original two and they're then left be. The issue I have with the new shield-breaking mechanics is that it instantly destroys any and all shields no matter the strength. Irelia's passive dealt 300% increased damage to shields (only off the bonus magic damage so 60x3) and didn't instantly destroy shields. Aatrox had to apply Mutilator before a shield is applied for it to even take any effect. I agree that Blitz is the weakest of the hookers due to the lack of other utility he can offer apart from hook n' kill, the shield-breaking being in his kit definitely helps him out but at the same time it is a large AoE nuke that instantly destroys all shields. Do tell me, do you think it's fair, balanced and healthy for someone to be able to run in the middle of an enemy team and instantly destroy, say, 2k health locket shields instantly at the press of a button?
: It’s the way it’s done. Irelia got it constantly by getting max stacks on her passive, this meant that when she stacked up shields became useless vs her for the rest of the fight... it wasn’t windowed. Aatrox might have worked better but his was a mutilate meaning it had to be applied before the shield to work... but the way aatrox worked meant that you don’t auto attack when you want, you auto attack when you could... which meant he didn’t really get much value out of the debut... so it was ditched in favour of a heal which works so much better for him These two have it as not only a windowed cooldown but one you as an enemy can see. Renekton has to use an empowered W to get it, this means that if he’s not got enough fury or after he uses W you are free to shield... you both have windows to play around Blitz is on an ultimate which you can see when it’s on and off cooldown thanks to its passive... so once he ults you can shield again without worry. ___ It’s a different and healthier way of doing it... instead of making shield useless vs that champion like what irelia had you create a window where you can shield vs them, it becomes a skill check... which is the healthy way of doing it.
> [{quoted}](name=swampert919,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=qf2pM0v5,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-07-20T00:39:22.447+0000) > > It’s the way it’s done. > > Irelia got it constantly by getting max stacks on her passive, this meant that when she stacked up shields became useless vs her for the rest of the fight... it wasn’t windowed. > > Aatrox might have worked better but his was a mutilate meaning it had to be applied before the shield to work... but the way aatrox worked meant that you don’t auto attack when you want, you auto attack when you could... which meant he didn’t really get much value out of the debut... so it was ditched in favour of a heal which works so much better for him > > These two have it as not only a windowed cooldown but one you as an enemy can see. > Renekton has to use an empowered W to get it, this means that if he’s not got enough fury or after he uses W you are free to shield... you both have windows to play around > Blitz is on an ultimate which you can see when it’s on and off cooldown thanks to its passive... so once he ults you can shield again without worry. > > ___ > > It’s a different and healthier way of doing it... instead of making shield useless vs that champion like what irelia had you create a window where you can shield vs them, it becomes a skill check... which is the healthy way of doing it. In a 1v1 scenario Irelia was able to thrash on shields pretty well, but not a lot of champions that would want to go head to head against her solo have shields. Most of the shields applied would be in mid-late teamfights where she'd have to actively put herself in harm's way to even get her passive stacked up, and even then it wasn't an instant deletion of the shield since it was only amplifying the bonus damage from her passive. Aatrox had to be applied before the shield for it to work, very true. It was also gated by a hefty cooldown that was reduced by a maximum of 6 seconds with each cast of the Darkin Blade, but was also easily visible. The heal on current Aatrox passive is very nice indeed and works for him pretty well, even if it, just like shield-breaking on Irelia, is only based on the bonus damage dealt by his passive. If a Renekton ever really uses a non-furied W on you there's no reason for you to lose the trade/all-in since most of his damage is done during the longer stun. If you see a Renekton with 50+ Fury you know not to go anywhere near the croc lest you risk most of your health or even death midgame. Having windows to play around to avoid the destruction of a shield on you means practically nothing when that window happens to be the main way to play around the champion in general. As for Blitz, I suppose him having another niche apart from hook 'n kill is a pretty good addition come to think of it. He was heavily lacking on utility compared to nearly every other support so I don't really have anything to say on that. At the end of the day, shields weren't useless even against old Irelia as an example since she had to stack her passive up, and you see exactly when she has her passive stacked up. You could shield at the beginning of an engagement if you happened to have a shield and were fighting her and basically forget about her ever having a shield-break in her kit. The preach about there now being windows of opportunity is basically void because you had those in the past with these ''unhealthy'' ways of doing it, Irelia's gated by passive stacks and Aatrox gated by a large cooldown. The only difference is that the current ''healthy'' way of doing it is instantly destroying any and all shields regardless of strength before adding any effects. It doesn't matter if you have a 4k locket shield from a 15k health Cho'Gath (exaggerated) when a Renekton who you walk too close to presses W at 50 Fury, can get that ability up in about 3 seconds thanks to Shojin, can maintain 50+ Fury at will mid-lategame, and also has the damage applied after the shield is broken instantly. Blitzcrank ultimate goes down to very low cooldowns at later ranks, is a large AoE and, again, instantly breaks any shields before applying the effects. I wouldn't say these ''new'' ways of adding the mechanic are healthier, on the contrary I'd say they're far worse than what we had.
: I'd rather say: why not add shield-breaking to some item? We already have items that apply heal-breaking (Grievous Wounds). We have items that slow. We have items that make shields better. We even have an item that counters spamming of a single damaging effect! So why not have an item that counters shield spamming?
> [{quoted}](name=Rainfollower,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=qf2pM0v5,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-07-19T21:41:07.323+0000) > > I'd rather say: why not add shield-breaking to some item? We already have items that apply heal-breaking (Grievous Wounds). We have items that slow. We have items that make shields better. We even have an item that counters spamming of a single damaging effect! So why not have an item that counters shield spamming? That's one thing that I do agree on as well, it doesn't really make any sense to have the mechanic tied to only champions when it could be made universal via an item, with the champion-specific effects being obviously stronger. It's not like everyone has been asking for such an item since... season 3? I'm not sure anymore.
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Semiramis II

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