: Hey there, Some neat ideas in there, some of which I had before as well.^^ The main Problem is: Everyone wants something different, as Karma's Playerbase is splitted. Some does not want a change at all, some want some tweaks, others a rework... and some just old Karma back. In the end you have to convince Riot as well :/ But as far as I heard there is still hope as Riot stated that Karma is not in an acceptable state right now.
> Everyone wants something different, as Karma's Playerbase is splitted. That's why I keep trying to invent something, that pleases as many as possible. But I think I just have to give up, at this point. I understand riot for changing, her, I understand old Karma fans for missing her, and I can see what new Karma fans see in her. Those ideas are so vastly different, it's nearly impossible to get to a single point, though. But then again, whatever Riot does, not everybody will like it either. Also I might give up posting in this forum. To reach anyone of the designers, get an answer, or at least inspiring or passively influencing one of the designers is impossible over here. > But as far as I heard there is still hope as Riot stated that Karma is not in an acceptable state right now. Yeah, they said quite a while ago, that Karma is not in an "acceptable state" to them. The last comment I've seen is, that the upcoming update is gonna focus on damage-mages, and not supportive mages like Morg, Ori and Karma. I still hope that I convince Riot, that there is something wrong with her, especially since 5.10. I'll keep posting in NA. Thank you for reading and your honest input though!
: Taking the best of Old and New Karma
Once again, nearly half the people voting want Karma to be changed, while the thread gets mostly ignored. A kingdom for a good discussion!
: It seems like you just want a super champ, with weaknesses that are covered up so hard by all the added strengths that you can't really call them weaknesses. Karma is good right now, if she ever got buffs her empowered Q would have to suffer and nobody wants to lose that.
> **_"with weaknesses that are covered up so hard by all the added strengths"_** The changes are meant to be power neutral. Her potential should be higher, but not her average performance. Maybe you are missing some of the implicit nerfs? * Q - normal damage and dps nerfed * RQ - size decreased, damage decreased (on top of Q damage decreased), second hit easier to avoid, slows potentially less * W - CC removed, dps decreased, doesn't guarantee RQ hit anymore * RW - "longest root ingame" removed, 40% missinghp heal removed. * E - speed nerfed and moved to W * RE - AoE shield removed, AoE speed removed, increased shielding removed * R - Cooldown doesn't decrease anymore on higher levels > **_"if she ever got buffs her empowered Q would have to suffer and nobody wants to lose that"_** I think it is a stupid design to have 80% of a champion's damage in a long-range-AoE-burst-poke-spell. Yes, I do enjoy hitting those, but it caps her potential in other areas, and I'd rather have an interesting champion over an RQ spambot.
Rioter Comments
: What you think about new masteries? (Thunderlords Decree)
The problem with TLD is: * They buffed TLD and overbuffed the flat penetration mastery at the same time, while nerfing other keystone masteries. As they work with every kind of damage, this made it too attractive for everyone. * TLD should proc from UNIQUE DAMAGE SOURCES, so a dot only counts as 1. Basically a champion should hit 3 different things to proc it, instead of having 1 thing hit 3 times. Other than that, I like the new masteries, and even more so the keystones. Balancing is always a bit icky.
Lembontsync (EUNE)
: THey already is an icon omg
This post is 7 MONTHS old. It was posted BEFORE there was this icon. {{sticker:zombie-brand-facepalm}} Next thing you gonna do is find a post from 2014 that requests a Poppy rework and ask them if they live under a rock.
Wrâth (EUW)
: 1, I dont think she changed that much her main goal is still poke. Its the same champion imo. 2, Well those are fine ideas but who says Karma has to be a support? Shes doing fine at top atm 50% winrate the highest of any roles with her. I dont think she needs a rework right now maybe a slight buff.
1. I meant the initial rework. She was shortranged before that. 2. Her lore and initial design. But I don't think my rework makes her viable only bot? I dunno. Karma keeps getting buffed again and again. I am slightly worried about overbuffing a "jack of all trades" type of character. Where do you get your statistics from btw?
Wrâth (EUW)
: I think shes okay on top lane where u can bully the enemy laner and shvoe out fast and roam. On other roles i dont rly feel like she adds anything useful to the game. In my elo u dont see her very often almost never :/.
Thank you for your answer! I love Karma, but the more I learn about the game and the higher I climb, the less I feel viable playing my favourite champion. In any role I just do better with champions I didn't even spend a fraction of the time playing. I can see you are a busy man, but I don't get to speak with an open and insightful LoL player that often. So could you do me the honor of answering two other questions? **1)** What did you think of pre-rework Karma? **2)** I tried [reworking Karma](http://boards.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-en/idvKoyTJ-remastered-full-karma-rework) to make her more unique and have more depth. I would be forever grateful if you could have a look and tell me what you think. Even if you think it's shitty, please let me know.
: Thanks. Now implement it into the client.
BEEP _The person you have tried to message is currently not working at Riot. Please try again a little later._ BEEP ######they can make mindblowing teasers but can't edit a freaken' didyouknow? CMON....
: Remove "You can only get 40% cooldown reduction" tip from the loading screen
> Your cooldownreduction is capped at 40% unless you use the Intelligence mastery, which increases it to 45%. There, done.
Wrâth (EUW)
: Answering questions about the game (Soloq master atm)
What's your opinion on Karma {{champion:43}} and especially the changes in 5.10 (shieldbomb removal)? Personally, I really like her, but since 5.10 I think she lacks depth (there is not much to "master" or to outplay people). And probably since always, she has been lacking a real purpose (there is nothing she can do that others can't do better). I started playing her less and less the higher I climbed (silver-plat). How is it looking like in your ELO?
: http://lol.qq.com/web201310/info-heros.shtml#Navi Here is the champion list. Search for VI
Yes, I know, it's her page. But where do you see a teaser of any kind? EDIT: Nevermind, I needed to REFRESH the page, to get it. For whatever reason. Thanks for sharing, bro! EDIT2: It seems only now the thumbnail has been adjusted too. Seems like it just wasn't working YET. You are really early^^.
: VI TEASER IS HERE
Erm.... this just looks like the chinese LoL site to me. Where is the teaser? I can't read chinese signs...
Solicitude (EUNE)
: Guinsoo's Rageblade
Irelia's playstyle makes it easy for her to stack it and her ult and E profit from AP. It also helps her waveclear. Basically anyone who has decent AP ratios can use this, due to the cost efficiency. Ezreal, Lucian,.... but Sivir? Doesn't make sense to me. But honestly? Ever since the nerf, I barely see the item anymore, other than on {{champion:24}} {{champion:39}} {{champion:11}}
: My first VID :D
Hey there, nice vid! A few things tho: * You should probably name the video after what's in it (Irelia gameplay/outplays) * Your mic is pretty shitty. I could barely hear you. * This might be better suited for the german part of the boards, even though 90% of it can be understood without speaking it. The intro might scare non-german-speakers off.
: Well then enemy Karmas have a thing for me... They always focus me. Like the rest of the team. I'm not even adc... It was my skill that annoyed me all along...
: I want : Lower range on most of her abilities Decrease her entire team speed-up Add her some actual damage to cover up the range and speed, Give her a heal that actually heals, And limit her AoE snare,it's like AoE version of LeBlancs,and that is frustrating. Like decrease duration...
Q and W have a rather mediocre range. Only RQ is rather long. The speedup? 60% for 1.5s? that's too much? Would anything less even be noticeable? Or disproportionate to what E does? _"And limit her AoE snare,it's like AoE version of LeBlancs"_ AoE snare? Her snare/root is single target.... do you mean her RQ slow? It's weaker than Lulu's Q and Zil's point-and-click slow.
cyberlord64 (EUNE)
: Your opinion on 3 all-terrain champions
{{champion:31}} can take top/mid/jungle easily (maybe even supp) {{champion:43}} can take supp/mid/top and work {{champion:96}}I would replace with {{champion:81}} He is safer, his AP burst is amazing and he fits more comps. {{champion:53}} can carry harder, but I think {{champion:412}} is more useful when behind and fits more teamcomps. However, if you are good with Blitz, you can top/mid/jungle as well. {{champion:223}} can AP mid, go jungle with devourer or cinderhulk, top as tank or support bot. {{champion:5}} {{champion:62}} {{champion:56}} can all go mid/top/jungle. {{champion:85}} can top/mid/support/ADC (never tried him jungle?) __________________________ There are more flexpicks, but they are usually a bit off meta (AP Lucian and MF can be quite strong mid), but this should give you a rough idea.
: [Remastered] Full Karma Rework
> #UPDATE: 26.Dez.15 * Added ~~removed ability parts~~ to the reworked skills for better clarity. * Added _CONTEXT_ paragraphs to explain the changes. * Added a **PLAYSTYLE **section to paint a better picture of what the rework tries to achieve. Thanks to EDYINNIT, PRUGAR SENPAI, SHYNDORA and SILISA for their input.
: Yeah,change her. She is too annoying,literally annoying. She can speed her whole team,make them steamroll you,and her Q can really hurt. Then she just roots everyone,like she is morgana or some shit,that is really annoying to play against.
It seems you find her too... strong? Or just too "annoying"? Anything in particular you want to have removed/changed?
Silisa (EUNE)
: > I tried to keep them different, by Lulu having more CC related utility, and Karma more damage related utility. I think you succeeded. I just love playing Lulu, and I got the same feeling of excitement about your Karma that I usually get only about the Fay Sorceress. She is so fun to play, since she has 2 abilities that she can use either on her allies or on her enemies. ^_^ > why nobody noticed or liked my rework I can't speak for anyone other than myself. I usually avoid threads related to champion ideas or ideas for rework - I don't consider myself qualified to give an objective opinion. The only reason I read this one is because I've recently renewed my interest in Karma, since I want to play more poke/utility supports. She seems like a good option, I just have to figure out the best way to use her.
_"I just love playing Lulu, and I got the same feeling of excitement about your Karma that I usually get only about the Fay Sorceress."_ I've switched to playing Lulu instead, when supporting, because of how dissatisfied I am with Karma. She is so incredibly more useful and also fun to play. And the emote spam is the second best (after Nami)! _"I can't speak for anyone other than myself."_ Your input is really useful though. And salutary, after being ignored that much. Thank you! _"She seems like a good option, I just have to figure out the best way to use her."_ Some short notes on Frozen Karma then; * I play her with 5% flat and 5% scaling CDR runes. 5% CDR from Masteries; this allows me to get the needed CDR of 30% with just one item (FH) and 45% CDR with just a single other item. * FH makes you so incredibly durable against the enemy ADC and jungler. This makes agressive Ws easier and even outduelling possible. If ganked they can't focus you, or your ADC can kill them. And protecting only one target is easier. * Building FH is possible, because your base damage will keep you relevant until finished. Once you have it, it provides all the CDR and mana you need (especially with Meditation). * If ahead build NL-rod, if behind build Giant's Belt. One makes your damage relevant again, the other makes you incredibly tanky. * Rylais nearly doubles your Q to a 40%slow for 1s. Your W becomes a point-and-click slow and the root is suddenly really easy to apply. * If tanky enough and not being a focus target, you can AA a lot in teamfights, which means your mantra is up a lot. You can constantly cast either RW or RE! * Fed midlaners will shit on you though. Round the build up with {{item:3111}} {{item:3105}} {{item:3222}} . I am still experimenting with {{item:3065}} {{item:3102}} , but they seem a bit too expensive/selfish. They solve the MR problem though. I love this build, but it also leaves you not flexible at all, compared to when I play Lulu for example. Being forced to get early MR for example ruins the timing completely. But if you get this build going, it's reallllllly cool :D! Be sure to spread it aorund, if it works for you :)! Or tell me, if it doesn't work (and why)!
Silisa (EUNE)
: > You seem both reflected and reasonable. Two words I have never seen used in reference to me. This is a beginning of a new era. I like your idea for her new passive. Although, those numbers might make her a bit unbalanced - with those ap bonuses, as long as she builds tanky enough, she could live in a fight long enough to put out a lot of damage. RQ - I like the utility. The damage, again, might be too high. But math isn't my strongest suit, so it might be just fine. W - I like it, just as it is. This kind of ability on Karma would be awesome. I like the fact that you removed the root, it would be too much with the added CC on RQ. RW - same as W. I like the last line: _If this damage would kill Karma's ally, the tether breaks instead._ xD RE - might deal too much damage. But it does balance out with the fact that allies around the target only get a speed boost and not a shield. Looks good, overall. R - I like it. Nothing to add here. Overall, I get the feel from this Karma as I do from Lulu. She gives a lot of outplay potential, and people can play her in different ways and use her abilities according to their preferences.
_"as long as she builds tanky enough, she could live in a fight long enough to put out a lot of damage."_ That's the point, actually. Karma would transfer from a squishy poke mage to a teamfighting AP bruiser (which she kinda has been all the time... clearly before the rework, and only indirectly now). However, note that both her base damage and ratios are rather low. If she uses RE for decent ratios, she gives up on all her CC, making her similar to juggernauts, who deal crazy damage. _"The damage, again, might be too high. But math isn't my strongest suit, so it might be just fine."_ I can't really tell either. But for reference; on lvl1-5 a debuffed enemy needs to take 167-500 damage to receive the same damage from Karma as he would now by taking the flat bonus damage. _"Overall, I get the feel from this Karma as I do from Lulu."_ I hoped so. However, I tried to keep them different, by Lulu having more CC related utility, and Karma more damage related utility. I spent the last half an hour to add "CONTEXT" labels to all abilities, but you basically caught all the implications without it ._. Now you just have to tell me, why nobody noticed or liked my rework. I am so lost....
Silisa (EUNE)
: > Well, you could just BUILD her tanky (FH and rylais) to try this. I'll give that a try when I get the chance to play her. > remove the bonus damage on RQ and that would make W a damage/heal ability, instead of damage/CC. I think it would make her more viable, and take the pressure off having to hit those RQs. It feels like you leave yourself defenseless if you throw an empowered Q and miss. Trying to use W in the early stages of the game is a gamble, so you are pretty much left with just a single target shield if your enemies decide to engage after you miss your poke combo. I don't play Karma much, so I miss more often then I hit. I'm pretty sure that's one of the reasons players either spam her or never touch her. I liked pre work Karma better. I'm pretty sure she is the only reworked champion that I'm not down with (<3 Poppy). I was especially bothered by the changes on her E - her RE was my favorite thing about her.
> _"I'll give that a try when I get the chance to play her."_ Be sure to call her _"Frozen Karma"_ then :D! > _"I'm pretty sure she is the only reworked champion that I'm not down with (<3 Poppy)"_ I love new Poppy! Both her funny and relatable character, as well as the weird but unique playstle. I must admit: I liked playing pre-rework GP and Sion a lot tho, but only for fun. The new ones are so much better. New Ashe, new nida, all so much better! > _" I was especially bothered by the changes on her E - her RE was my favorite thing about her."_ This. Hurts. So. Bad. I could get over losing double mantra and lvl6 abilities and the bait passive and stuff, because New Karma offered a lot in return. But my shieldbomb.... I am so dissatisfied with her playstyle ever since the removal. Guess what I gave her back in my rework :D? Anyways, I'll just post it here. You seem both reflected and reasonable. Your critique might proof very helpful! [FULL KARMA REWORK](http://boards.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-en/idvKoyTJ-remastered-full-karma-rework)
Silisa (EUNE)
: I have no idea, so I'll just throw random thoughts at you. 1. Lower the damage but increase the slow on her Q, and make her more tanky so she can actually use her W in fights (this could make her viable, or completely unbalanced); 2. Change her W completely, to compliment better the rest of her kit, which is more poke and speed boost related.
1) Well, you could just BUILD her tanky (FH and rylais) to try this. I like doing this as support. You lose your poke and waveclear for better all-ins and teamfights. I wrote a rework that would remove the bonus damage on RQ and that would make W a damage/heal ability, instead of damage/CC. Would you be interested in giving me your review on this? Also, what do you think of her old (pre rework) tether?
: Exactly the one you provided us with, the "Good or Bad Karma? (Pre-Season Thoughts)" We have spent quite some time discussing the two possible rework ideas. Not that i blame you for not remembering the nickname :)
Oh, it's you again! <3 I really wish this forum had more.... memorable avatars. You stopped answering, so I didn't know how you thought about it in the end. I am glad you still consider it a viable option!
: Hmmm sort of, I think her kit promotes versatility, which is always nice in a champion. You can build many different items which synergize well with her, which allow you to build to the situation. Her kit is actually quite strong. Her Q is fast, good range and is aoe (you can hit ADCs trying to hide behind the minion line) AND it also slows. Accompanied by the mantra you can basically double the damage and the slow effect and the slow becomes a sort of ranged gauntlet passive if you like. Her W does damage and roots, it also creates pressure (something a lot of people forget to notice), having a karma begin her W on you makes most players immediately resort to the defensive. Her mantra heals karma, scaling off both HP AND AP, so you dont HAVE to build tanky for it to have maximum effect, you can build hp/ap items like RoA, Rylais, Liandrys, which all work well with her. The lower the HP karma is, the more you are healed from it, which kind of fits into her theme of "karma", combine this with hourglass and some hp/ap stacking and you can make some really clutch plays which deal both a good amount of damage and heals you. Her E is a shield that also applies movement speed (another attribute often overlooked) which is great to "catch up" to people (karma theme again), you can also add this with mantra and get a pseudo sivir ultimate. Her passive I feel works well too, you are rewarded by successfully poking your enemy, which is what karma is designed to do. There is no cooldown on her passive, which means the more you poke, the shorter your mantra cooldown becomes. But in regards to her W, building "tanky" is a bit of an understatement when it scales off HP and AP, which many AP items allow you to do.
Hi there! Don't get me wrong; I like Karma's playstyle. That is: versatility, duality and unusual design. However, this is exactly what I like to criticize; all of those aspects have been reduced in the recent 5.10 update! I also like champions with depth and skills, that I can improve upon. The thing I liked most about Karma was the decision making, that was needed for a good use of her Mantra. But I think the depth of this has been reduced as well. Which is bad. I don't mind champions that are hard to learn and hard to master, but if suddenly they become easy to master, something is wrong. I think those are things, that we could agree upon. Now for the disagreement: > _"Her W does damage and roots, it also creates pressure (something a lot of people forget to notice), having a karma begin her W on you makes most players immediately resort to the defensive."_ The point about "pressure" is an interesting one. Because it applies to her RQ as well (you are forced to do nothing but walk out of the circle for a short time or you take the damage). However, this is also Karma's downfall; the pressure is only applied if Karma is ahead! Be it in trades, items, levels, etc. If Karma is behind, this pressure is ineffective, and Karma can easily be ignored, or even killed during W. Champions like Thresh and Blitzcrank too apply this pressure, if ahead, just by being close and threatening with a possible hook. However, even if behind, a good/lucky hook can get you back into the game. For Karma's tether, there is no such thing. Similarly; Zyra, Morgana and Lux can threaten you with comparable damage/CC, that can INSTANTLY be applied. And here too a good/lucky root can help your team if behind. This makes a good support; being useful without items or when behind. This does not apply to Karma. NOTE: I personally like playing support Karma rather tanky {{item:3098}} {{item:2049}} {{item:3110}} {{item:3116}} , so I can threaten enemies with my root, but they can't threaten me by turning on my squishy butt. > _"Her mantra heals karma, scaling off both HP AND AP, so you dont HAVE to build tanky for it to have maximum effect, you can build hp/ap items like RoA, Rylais, Liandrys, which all work well with her."_ The heal would probably be better if W didn't have a cast time. Because you have to decide cast it at a time that you know you can survive for the next ~0.75 seconds. This means, you can NEVER cast it at 1hp, making it a true 20% missing health heal. This makes baiting and outplaying really hard. Harder than it used to be on Old Karma for example (her RQ heal was instant). For that matter; a squishy mage should never fall below a third of his/her HP, because then they could pop instantly by anything. But the most successfull Karma builds according to champion.gg (Plat+ in ranked) are {{item:3165}} {{item:3285}} {{item:3020}} {{item:3089}} {{item:3135}} . This makes RW utterly useless most of the time on Karma's most sucessful builds! If W didn't have a casttime or if RW had a FLAT HEAL that scaled a bit with low health (think Sona/Soraka) this wouldn't be that much of an issue. > _"The lower the HP karma is, the more you are healed from it, which kind of fits into her theme of "karma", combine this with hourglass and some hp/ap stacking and you can make some really clutch plays which deal both a good amount of damage and heals you."_ Oh boy, you should have seen her old passive then. The more you hurt her, the more she could hurt you. That was a way better "Karma" feeling" than just this. Hourglass only helps after you casted it for the first heal, and even then you want to chase, because people can just break the tether and reengage in the meantime. I don't find Hourglass good on her. > _"Her passive I feel works well too, you are rewarded by successfully poking your enemy,.... " If Tahm had his ultimate passive (health -> damage) instead of his current passive, you would probably say it's a good passive too. Because it works with his kit. Similar thing with the MF rework; I liked her old passive, but it wasn't enough, so they made it the W passive and gave her a better one. The point is, that she has her passive, that could've been on her ultimate passive. ALL other champions have a passive that adds another aspect to their kit. Karma does not. > _"...poking your enemy, which is what karma is designed to do."_ I would dispute that. First: Old Karma was short ranged. Secondly; she is not a true poke champion. She only has one ability, that is good for poking. W is not. A mobility spell/shield should not be on a poke champion, but on a kite champion. And the intended weakness of pokechampions is, when they are engaged upon with mobility spells. Whick Karma is kind of good at too. This washes down her strengths and weaknesses... I mean, just think about it; what kind of lanes is Karma good or weak against? I see you are very passionate about Karma, but you have to understand; I am too. And I think the design that RIOT chose is not good for her. They know she is not in a good place, but as long as she is just underplayed instead of toxic, there is no need to tackle her anytime soon.... And I wish 5.10 never happened.
: Well, the OP tries to tell her kit is kinda counter-intuitive for her. Q suggests you build as much AP as possible. W suggests you build as tanky as possible. E suggests you build as much AP as possible (when supporting) or a mixture of both (when playing the bait). When going full AP, you cannot really utilize her W to the fullest. When going semi-tanky, your Q will feel very lackluster. I agree she is a poke-beast when supporting. But that's about it. Could be much better with a slight powershift or one of the suggestions from previous threads.
I appreciate your input. We seem to agree on this. But if I may ask: what "previous threads" do you mean?
Silisa (EUNE)
: I hate Karma. She either blows people up with a (usually) lucky R+Q, or she is pretty much useless. She is less then good, almost there champion. She can't deal enough damage to be a solo laner, and if you put her on support - sure, her early game is awesome, but she doesn't do much in team fights, other than an occasional R+E.
Pretty much agree on all of this. But, out of curiosity; what do you think can/should be done about her?
Rayz019 (EUNE)
: Leblanc isn't a poke mage.
Fair enough. Do you think her old W and short range fit her playstyle better?
Rayz019 (EUNE)
: Her Kit is a jumbled Mess, she either nukes people from support or provides very little for a mid laner. Tether type abilities don't belong with Poke Mages.
That's a new! Do you also think LeBlanc shouldn't have her tether? Or what do you say to her Old Tether (that could bind to allies too)?
: I like her, but if she were to get buffs, that level 1 RQ has to go. There isn't any other champ that can flat-out zone you from 1 level with one spell like that except for a 3rd stack Morde, and he has to go melee to do that. Karma does it from faaaar away.
I don't think she should be buffed, but I agree, having so much damage in a single spell is not healthy. Especially since it's a long ranged pokespell, that is mobile too.
Rioter Comments
Vuks (EUNE)
: For clarity - I meant a rework or serious change, not some number fiddling. Minions are an another story, as it affects every single player.
Well, reworks and "serious changes" are usually more thought-through. If there is a problem and they don't succeed with their solution, they will try ANOTHER one, instead of going back and pretending the problem does not exist. You can see that nicely with Skarner and Mordekaiser for example. They keep admitting what doesn't work there and try new approaches. However, as for Karma, I do not understand what they were "trying to fix". They just wanted to "improve her", but I think, mainly in terms of game design, they made her worse. Her values are better now, yes, but she lost her depth and identity for it.
: Please, RIOT, can we have the Shieldbomb back?
Vuks (EUNE)
: It's worse than that. Karma was threw into the shitmaking 0-thought-rework-machime. It made her a binary champion now. Do I deal damage with RQ, or do I use r for something else and be useless? This looks so damn similar to pre-rework Nidaspeare, ir's not even funny. Also she won't get the bomb back. Tell me one, just one case of a change outside of pbe where riot admitted they fucked up and reverted it.
Well, if you follow RIOT they actually love to point out their flaws in thinking and admit mistakes rather often. And honestly. And they also revert things from time to time: 5.25 -> Reverting precision to earlier values. 5-24 -> minion pathing reverted 5-19 -> Zac E minimum range (from 5-18) removed again 5-18 -> Braum's manacost reverted to pre 5.12 values. .... i mean, I could go on like this, and I would even probably miss some, but you get the point. Personally I just think someone tried to redesign Karma who had nothing to do with the initial rework (they even admitted that they don't quite know what the original purpose behind her rework was). And I don't think this person did realize how Karma is played, or what made her good/unique. And I find this a shame. And I have no idea why people are voting me down. I thought about this for over 6months now and they don't even provide counter arguments...
Rioter Comments
: I am glad i could be of help. I would need to see these stats in game to be more sure of whether its overpowered or not. Right now, i was just alarmed by some things that felt like giving too much power. As for the passive, it is very similar to Cassiopeia's or even Ryze's ultimate passive. Free CDR in kit (no matter when achieved in game) gives much more free space for building items. AP's are in kinda a shortage for good all around CDR items. There is Morellonomicon and athenes which is only for mana users and getting both is a manaregen overkill. Lichbane is only for mana-users and not really for every one of them. For manaless champs, there is only WotA and Banner of Command, which is again a very niche item. There is a reason people started playing Spellthief on mid. I believe the 10% CDR is one of the reasons. With that in mind, Karma being able to build fully AP, knowing she will reach reasonable amounts of CDR someday, the increase of the AP ratio on her shield bomb felt like too much. For maximum damage you would never upgrade Q but go for the portion of damage riot removed. You could do more damage instantly than live. Much more. I didn't really check the numbers on the healing, it is really kinda weak. I only compared her to Sona as she also heals two targets and shields two targets. In one spell. This Karma can choose when to shield (with a much stronger shield) and when to heal. Most supports have only one of these defensive options. Karma having both is....kinda big deal. When you take into account her adaptability and ability to be also super offensive. I basically wanted the Mantra to have ultimate-like cooldown because the CDR in-built to her kit. It needs to be higher than live because the spells are so much stronger than live. Talking about the second rework, i just imagined a fight on botlane at level 7, getting ganked and Karma hitting both a Q on all targets and a RRE on her burst down carry. That would be two rank 4 spells. While maxing damage, you would conjure a ridiculously huge shield to save your buddy, while also damaging anyone near him. Also, this could be a possibility but the effect is so gamechanging, it wouldn't be fair to keep that on a lower-than-ultimate like CD.
> _"Right now, i was just alarmed by some things that felt like giving too much power."_ Because of the values or because of what the abilities do? The values can be easily adapted. However if the abilities fail to do what they should, it's more of a problem. > _"Free CDR in kit (no matter when achieved in game) gives much more free space for building items."_ Correct. While other carries can have CDR as a kind of luxury, Karma is utterly dependent on it. Her best combo (Q-E-W-RQ) is only available at 30%+ CDR. And max CDR are nearly a must for teamfights. However, getting two CDR items hinders propper buildpaths. This was meant to free her up a bit, even though she will probably still always get a CDR item. > _"There is a reason people started playing Spellthief on mid. I believe the 10% CDR is one of the reasons."_ Well, it's really cost efficient, grants more manareg than any other item and has a 40% slow every 60s, that can help with chasing, scouting and kiting. The 50AP and 10%CDR are nice, but I don't think the main reason. A nerf is on the PBE already! > _"With that in mind, Karma being able to build fully AP, knowing she will reach reasonable amounts of CDR someday, the increase of the AP ratio on her shield bomb felt like too much."_ Her best damage options (W and RE) will reward being upclose. Same with her waveclear. Her passive grants more effective AP if she can stay alive at low HP. At the same time her safe poke got nerfed. I think she will most likely build like a bruiser {{item:3027}} {{item:3001}} {{item:3157}}. Concerning the values: As I said, I spent days comparing values - with Orianna's W for example: [70-250 +70%] damage and a 20-40% speed modifier on a 9s CD. This is really comparable to the values I proposed. For a semi-ulti that needs TWO spells to work, this might be justifiable. > _"For maximum damage you would never upgrade Q but go for the portion of damage riot removed. You could do more damage instantly than live. Much more."_ I don't think I understand that part. Why not upgrade her Q? What does more damage? > _"Karma having [heal and shield] is....kinda big deal."_ So does Sona. In one spell, actually. And Janna/Lulu if you count their ultimates. Karma's heal would be less impactful than Janna's/Lulu's and keeping both parties at full health is a (mana) costy business. So much that it would impact the mana she has for poking. This was intentional: Her W is meant to build a LOT on good decision making. Is it better to help your ADC kill somebody? Or will he survive so the heal comes through? Do I need the mana to poke? For safety shields? Or do I play it safe and keep us healthy? Finding a balance in this should be a major goal for Karma in lane. Balance, dualism, decision making.... all what I think Karma should have, but misses.... > _"I basically wanted the Mantra to have ultimate-like cooldown because the CDR in-built to her kit."_ In exchange for getting CDR lategame, she does lose her scaling passive and her Q can not double proc it anymore. Dunno if this is enough, but values can change ** *shrug* **. ___________________________________________ ___________________________________________ Regarding EDYinnit's reworks: I concede. I don't think I know enough to explain/justify this. You probably should ask him^^ However, I would again ask you to not concentrate too much on the values, but on the idea itself. Thanks again for your patience, though!
: Your rework seems very....overpowered. It adds a lot of unnecessary power. in addition to shielding, Karma can now actively heal, including healing herself is a bit of an overkill. This would give her more sustain than Sona, when needed. The passive gives her free CDR. Lots of it. Supports are not in need of CDR. Mages do. There are very few good AP items with CDR now. Also a lot of AP, while she is free to build pure AP because of free CDR. This would give Karma free hands towards itemizing for whatever else she wants. While also having the tools to be more opressive than Sona in terms of harass. The ranged AoE stun zone with a debuff is a joke, i hope. If the current missile speed, width and explosion radius remain unchanged, we have a Leona-ultimate like ability on Q. Available since level 1. This ability only would require Mantra with all the cooldown reduction effects have at least 90 seconds per charge. I am also confused whether RW heals both targets as it does in W only or if it only chains them together to share pain. Sharing kills is a nice idea, still not sure if defensive RW would ever be used over any other OP spells you provided :) Offensive RW is very interesting. I like that idea. Damage has been removed from RE and i miss it. This was by far my most favourite skill on old Karma. I am not very good with numbers but your RE also seem like an ATOMIC BOMB. The base damage and scaling are both insane. With a slow. And the speedup for allies. AND a huge shield. All your Mantra abilities have an "ultimate" feel to it. This would need Mantra have an ultimate-like cooldown. And definitely not two charges. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- About the second rework, again i don't think she needs to have the mantra'd ability on maximum rank all the time. Heimerdinger ult does that. LeBlanc ult does that. Yes, but they gain it on level 6. As an ultimate, with an ultimate cooldown. Other than that, i love the spell variability. RQ or RRQ healing is a very nice idea BECAUSE it is an offensive spell with explosion at max range/enemy hit. Let the healing be OP, as OP as the damage, because it needs such ridiculous setup and will create some wild positioning or even new botlane combos. RRW stun is kinda weak-ish or I am misunderstanding something. Karma is not a frontline initiator. This is not even really a bait spell, i would much rather rely on the healing from RRQ in times like those. RRE Shield Bomb has not provided any numbers. Still, this might be the most damaging ability in the kit. While being able to max Q and using that without Mantra and then using RRE with Q's rank and damage.... That's some nasty burst. Gives almost unfair level advantage. Again, all these abilities seem very interesting in design but would require Mantra to be acquired at level 6 and/or have ultimate-like cooldown.
Wow, that was faster and more detailed than I had hoped for. On we go then: _____________________ # Passive: I wouldn't call it "free". To receive the first bonus she needs around 3 kills and 1 assist or 1 kill and 2 assists to even get ANYTHING from her passive. Realistically the first two boni can be achieved around midgame (1 tower, 2 kills, 3 assists). Compared to a Veigar passive this is still underwhelming. The passive is meant to make Karma group a lot, donate kills to the jungler and the ADC and call for team objectives. Also yes, she needs CDR. Even as a midlaner. This makes building her very awkwards, as you need damage, cdr, mana and usually also some defense for your W to be effective. The passive gets rid of some necessities and frees the building choices. Honestly, due to how the new kit works (Missing HP -> AP, W&RW especially) I expect her to build tanky, similar to Cass. _____________________ # RQ: Do not forget that the bonus damage of both effects have been cut (75-525+90%). This means it essentially does the regular Q damage (80-260 +60%) in a bigger radius. Compare this to Leona's ultimate (150-350+80%). Her 80% slow and stun both last for 1.5 seconds. This duration is only achieved by Karma at lvl16. With the damage from RQ cut, her poke would clearly be weaker than Sona and Lulu, as poking with her Q alone is rather hard (both a skillshot AND blocked by minions). This was the price to pay for better sustain. ____________________ #W This heal is actually weaker in base value than Nami's W for example. Similarly expensive though. It is interesting, because it's the only real HoT in League and creates interesting counterplay to it. _____________________ # RW This DOES still heal both targets if applied to an ally. Defensive RW is a safer option, as it can swallow more damage than offensive RW and does not require you to be in range of enemies. Also if you RW an enemy he can simply decide not to do anything (if he is clever he should be rewarded), so it is the only thing that could have literally no effect. _________________ # RE Believe it or not, the only thing that is different between this one and pre-5.10 RE is that it slows and has a 80% scaling instead of 60%. In exchange it has no AoE shield anymore. This spell had been in the game for nearly 2 years... Anyways; the better scaling would be needed, to make up for the missing damage in her RQ. And as the new RQ and RW only indirectly provide damage (damage increase and damage reflection) this would be the only "safe" way of dealing damage. _____________ # MANTRA The two charges would only be possible VERY late in game. In most pro games it would probably be never seen and in normal games it would only appear on a really fed Karma or in 40+minute games. Which is a time where currently Karma falls off drastically anyways. I have spent some days comparing and evaluating values for this rework. However, this means they couldn't be easily adapted. I wouldn't mind having this implemented with worse values if those proof too strong. I am mainly interested in whether the ideas work. _____________________________________ _____________________________________ I probably should let EDYinnit answer this, but I can share what I learned from discussion with him: > Yes, but [Heimer and LeBlanc] gain it on level 6. As an ultimate, with an ultimate cooldown. Well, to be honest, LeBlancs ultimate has 40/32/24 seconds CD, which is rather in line with Karma's CD. Heimer is around 100/80/60, which is closer to normal ultimates, but his kit revolves mainly around his turrets, not his ultimate. And LeBlanc revovles around mobility, which she has early on. Karma revolves around her Mantra's which is evident by her passive. For as to why it needs to be max level: This needs to be the case. Champions with this mimiking/transformation ultimate profit from having more flexibility and more choices (instead of raw power). However, if the abilitiy works with the BASE ABILITY level, you will only use the one ability, that is leveled the most. Which is exaclty why Karma currently only uses RQ effectively in lane. This makes lane boring for both Karma players and her opponents. And cuts the flexibility, she is supposed to be good at. **RRW** I think it's actually quite strong. It slows by 25%, reduceds the targets damage by 20%. This makes both staying in position and staying close to an enemy rather easy. Followed up is an easy to apply 1-2.25s stun. Also the damage is kinda ridiculous. **RRE** If my math is correct, it's 130-405 + 105% damage. > Again, all these abilities seem very interesting in design but would require Mantra to be acquired at level 6 and/or have ultimate-like cooldown. In EDYinnit's rework all double-mantra abilitiy would essentially have a 90-72seconds cooldown. Ultimates like Syndra has 100-80seconds. Granted; with the current CD reduction passive, these cannot be directly compared, but then again, EDYinnit clearly states that he is unsure about the CD values and I use pre 5.10 CD reduction. AND I am very willing to adapt values if they are over border. Valid criticism, nonetheless! Thank you for the input so far!
: She is trying to do everything and is not "the best" at anything. If riot buffed her to be able to do everything, she would be broken. Honestly, i would love her old W returned to her. A spell that requires allied cooperation for maximum potential can have the maximum potential very high. And if that was the case, i would definitely want old E back, so that we can do Orianna/Malphite like combos (Buff a suiciding ally into an AoE damage bomb). You could even add it as a delayed damage bomb on that so that the enemy has some counterplay options and is punished more when Karma and her team actually locks you down with CC. So.....Yeah, i would revert the rework, keep the new Q and passive. Karma would become the backline support of melee tanks/bruisers. She would lose lots of tankiness and movespeed (and gained some only with the W). She would gain more damage. Traded self-peel utility for team utility. Actually, when comparing old E and new Q, i am not sure what would i max first. Old RE was the stuff. Karma would be easier to kill and much stronger when left alone.
Well, RIOT noted to her old W, that it was a problem, as it required your allies to know what you were up to for maximum effect. That's why the removed it. But then again, they made Kalista's ultimate now.... Anyways, I hate to make this look like a selfish selfplug, but I am always interested in some well-thought criticism and you might just be the guy. There are two Karma reworks that I am convinced of could have quite some success. * The [first one](http://boards.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-en/idvKoyTJ-remastered-full-karma-rework) is by me. It reworks her passive, W and Mantra interactions, to increase her decision making, makes her more leader like and tightens her playstyle as support and mage at the same time. * The [second one](http://boards.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/suggestions-bug-reports-en/9gPp7KEv-rework-suggestion-karma-the-enlightened-one) is by a fellow Karma player. He gave Mantra TWO charges again, and allows Karma to potentially DOUBLE CHARGE her spells. The first charge would add "duality" to a spell, the second one gives her "ultimate power". This tackles the original problem of why Karma shouldn't have two charges, allowing her ultimate to feel more unique again. I'd really appreciate it, if you could tell me what you think about those.
: I have always felt Karma is not a very good 5v5 champion. Good at all the things, master of none. However, i love to play her in 3v3. She can more than hold her own lane and her ganks/assists are terrifying since level 3. Pair her with a suicidal jungler, preferably with some sort of CC (Xin Zhao being my favourite) and another supportish AP with poke and disengage (Lulu being the most successful). You have a team that is okay when fighting 1v1 and absolutely beast-mode when fighting 3v3. No matter who the enemy focuses, you shield them. Twice. And add a Lulu ult. Focusing Karma? Bad idea. She can deal all her damage while running away. Focusing Xin? Bad idea. He gets megabuffed so you cannot kill him. Running away? Karma gives lots of movespeed, Lulu can also give lots of movespeed. TurboXin incoming. Karma herself is in a weird spot. She can work with the right team setup though. Otherwise she will be sub-par. Might win lane and still be reliant on her team to win game.
Unfortunately I've never played 3v3 seriously :-/ Do you have any ideas to what she could use? What could be improved on her, or what should be changed?
jana (EUW)
: 2 charges of ult would work well in my first inpression. for scalings i cant say without calculatng.
Well, the thing with 2 charges... Karma used to have that. And there were some reasons, why RIOT removed it. Some of them being; * RIOT had to balance it, always keeping in mind that someone could have two of it. So essentially, two of them had to be used to achieve "ultimate power", which made single ultimates feel lackluster. * As Karma was, and as she is now, the power of her ult scales mostly off the BASE ABILITY LEVEL, which means, you usually only want to keep recasting the same ability twice. Instead of giving Karma more options with her R, it realistically limited it to the most leveled spell. * I think there was also the point about lacking counterplay if an ability would never be truly "down", but I can't find a quote about that. That being said; a fellow Karma player suggested a [REWORK](http://boards.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/suggestions-bug-reports-en/9gPp7KEv-rework-suggestion-karma-the-enlightened-one) of hers, that would give her back two charges, while tackling those two problems; He allows Karma to DOUBLE CHARGE single abilities to reach full "ultimate power". Also his spells scale with the highest level Karma has in any ability. Check it out, I find it rather interesting. I too proposed a rework, that would give her double charges in lategame (so she wouldnt fall off that hard) while also changing what Mantra'd spells actually do.
jana (EUW)
: you can make every champion with the right buffs/rework relevant. and i dont think {{champion:43}}'s skillset is bad.
As I said, I think it lacks depth. Especially since 5.10 But I am curious, what would you suggest? Like, what changes would you like to see, or what do you think could work?
jana (EUW)
: it depends. you can buff her only for mid game maybe. shes fine in early and late but the game evolvs around mid game and early. or folowing to riots balancing philosophie buff her early and late game (so she has still the same issues in mid game). a buff dont nessecerly mean that something is op after. it can be the case if the buff is to big still. :)
But even if she wouldn't fall off so badly in midgame, what would make pros pick her? Any job she could do, others can do better? Pros usually only use the strongest in a certain kategorie, and she is far from that :-/
jana (EUW)
: {{champion:43}} need a buff to be relevant in compatitive. as for now other champions just benefit the team more. that sayed i dont think shes bad. and i think she can be played along all elo ranges. :)
The problem with straight up buffing her is, that it would make her too overbearing outside of competitive. And an allrounder that is too strong would be seen everywhere, pushing out every other champ. That's why I think she needs some redesigning. Her Mantra could be so much cooler than just being a Heimer ult. Maybe she also needs a new, standalone passive, that makes her more interesting.... And personally, I think her tether could be done better, than a point-and-click LeBlanc E...
: Thus far I've had pretty OK success rate with this build: {{item:3092}} {{item:3165}} {{item:2049}} {{item:3504}} {{item:3135}} {{item:3020}} . But Voidstaff is a bit depending on circumstances, I usually only pick voidstaff if facing tanker opponents as of a general. That's my support build though, the reason why I've not added armor to the mix is because generally positioning has been enough to keep me safe while harassing the enemy laners. I don't mind trying out your suggestion though! Might work great. As for masteries I have a split damage/support focus, with the mastery that gives 45 % CDR, and it's supported through the upper build. As for Karma mid, which is what I've mostly done with her if not support I've generally gone for this build: {{item:3165}} {{item:3001}} {{item:3157}} {{item:3135}} {{item:3285}} or {{item:3089}}. Sometimes I've put {{item:3151}} in there instead, but lately I've pretty much only played Karma support, as it's the role least wanted, and it depends a lot on who I am facing in lane. I try to build according to opponent, which I am not great at yet, lol.
I usually get 0/18/12, with +5%CDR and Windwalkers. My runes grant me +5% Flat CDR and 5% scaling CDR, which means I can hit the required 30% CDR (for Q-W-RQ) with just FH, and later achieve the full 45% with another item and scaling. Ever since 5.10 I try to abuse the long root and the buffed passive as much as possible, which is only really good, if you can stay in range of your opponents (if you build squishy and try to root someone, you get killed very often). Also, since you don't provide a lot of protection, compared to other supports, playing a bit of a meatshield always helps. If they have a lot of hypercarries though, like Vayne, don't expect to live... In top, I usually go something like this: {{item:3027}} {{item:3174}} {{item:3158}} and {{item:3157}} {{item:3001}} {{item:3151}} In mid, it's more carry oriented: {{item:3165}} {{item:3020}} {{item:3089}} {{item:3116}} {{item:3151}} {{item:3135}} As support, I have switched to Zilean/Lulu/Sona, but my **"Frozen Karma"** build goes like this: {{item:3098}} {{item:2049}} {{item:1001}} -> Base {{item:3110}} {{item:3116}} {{item:1033}} -> Core {{item:2301}} {{item:3111}} {{item:3190}} {{item:3222}} -> Final Touch Yes, people play her mostly for the hilarious RQ damage on unsuspecting foes, but playing her as a bruiser-support is pretty fun for me too. Insane AoE protection, reliable lockdown and some insane tankyness. In some games I have duelled the enemy ADC with this (just a Lucian though).
: I've only played her this season, and I love her. With the slow I've gotten my ADC a lot of kills, and with my shield I've been thanked for a last second save more times than I can count. Plus I can harass the enemy laners into oblivion, as most of the time I outrange them. I can't kill them perhaps, not with a support build, but I can harass them to smithers and get my ADC a double kill through a well-placed R+Q and a W. Plus the shield speeding up has made me able to save my ADC from incoming ganks, as he'll get out of dodge faster, or if the jungler ganking is ours helped him catch up and get kills. As far as I can see she is still flexible, and I love her ability set. So much I can do with it. Slow enemies, check, safe harass enemies/poke em down without risk to myself, check, speed up ally, check, with ardent cleanser my shield will also give them bonus magic damage on their AA plus extra attack speed, speed up myself, get myself out of sticky situtations, check. Shield an entire team, check, self-heal, check. So yeah, I still find I can do a lot with her, and I absolutely love this champ. With Karma it's basically up to your imagination. If her kit sounds generic, you're not putting your mind to it.
Have you tried Lulu? She basically does everything you just listed. Sona is kinda similar too, but works even better with Ardent Censer, because she can permanently apply it to everyone arround her. But if you want to stick with Karma; I've had a lot of fun&success with her, by playing this build: {{item:3098}} -> {{item:2049}} -> {{item:1001}} -> {{item:3110}} -> {{item:3116}} It offers a more forgiving playstyle, assasins can't burst you, you can easily tank most ADCs for a while, your RW becomes ridicilously strong and with the FH aura and the drastically improved slows, you offer quite the utility. Also you can get in more AAs during teamfights, which means more REs! Try it, and let me know how it went!
: i think that karma is jsut too simple as a champion. i mean, her kit sounds so generic. a skillshot with a slow? a knockoff point and click morgana ult that works on a single target? a generic shield? and a knockof heimerdinger ult that slightly increases the power of of her other abilities. i find her sooooo bland to play, id rather play morgana with more reliable cc
Karma's ult was interesting in two regards; * It had two charges. * Mantra CHANGED what the spells could be used for. Both have been essentially removed. Now there is no clever deciding when to ult what ability, in combination to what, when to save charges, etc. And instead of turning a damage spell into a heal or a shield into an AoE nuke, you just get more of the same... Just boring :C. Mantra could be so much more interesting, than just a more often available Heimer ult. I tried to propose [a rework](http://boards.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-en/idvKoyTJ-remastered-full-karma-rework ) once, that, once again, CHANGED what her spells do. To compliment the 2 other spells. A friend of mine tried to rework her differently, by giving her [TWO mantra charges](http://boards.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/suggestions-bug-reports-en/9gPp7KEv-rework-suggestion-karma-the-enlightened-one) again, and allowing spells to be possibly double charged.
Inaphyt (EUW)
: I miss the w tether and her heal....
You mean pre-rework? The 0 cast-time AoE-heal was pretty cool, imo. The tether was a bit problematic, but i don't really like the current one that much more...
Déadpoo (EUNE)
: I played Karma before 5.10 and I really, really enjoyed her. Played her Jungle and Mid, decent ganks, very high damage and poke on lane. I really wanted to buy her but after that free week Riot decide to nerf her and somehow made her from very-fun to unsatisfying and meh. What I want to point is that the nerf on her wasn't necesary since she is ain't good on every team comp and she is ain't that OP like other champs. Every champ can be OP when ahead and fed, even yorick.
Well, in terms of values, it was a buff. The stronger W and the better passive is worth a lot, especially lategame. But her options were nerfed, I agree. I also agree that this change was not necessary. Or at least counter-productive. I loved her before and love/hate her now :C! Btw, a fed Yorick is disgusting. Either you kite him or you die. And there is two of them...
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