: Yorick is being changed for that exact reason. Garen has number issues, but at least he's fully melee and when he commits, he commits. If he uses Q to engage, he can't escape. Darius similarly has number issues, but has 0 escape and smart players can beat him. Darius can be forced out of lane if you deny him Qs. Gnar has very defined weak points, mini-Gnar = free kills. Tahm Kench is broken, hence why he is permabanned, so don't compare. Kassadin? What is a Kassadin? Like it or not, Riot have changed him.
- Garen gains enough movement speed by Q to hit it with it and run back. That't not a problem for him. - Well sometimes, you can't get an escape kit. Ofc not every Champion has an escape abilitiy, that has it reasons. He can 2v1 easly when the Jungler comes. And by the way, you can also outplay Shen. - Mini-Gnar = freekill? Lol, you obviously didn't play against a Gnra main didn't you? Mini Gnar has also an escape abilitiy if needed, slow and is ranged. Try to kill him easly as an Melee But as I said, I did mention just some of Champions in LoL, would be cool if you describe for all LoL Champions how is it to be interesting to play against each Champion then! You don't say? Didn't know that they changed him lol. I still wanted to discuss about it but it seems that you guys only focus on Riot's work.
kurnubego (EUNE)
: Exactly. Discussion. Not just to whine and validate your opinions by people who already think like you.
Well, after my linked post, you didn't say anything productive, on the contrary, just tried to avoid the communication by recommending me to not to play this game.
kurnubego (EUNE)
: Yorick is broken and on his way to Rework. Garen has cooldowns, his early game is rather weak, any champion does more damage with autos than he with his E early. Got his silence nerfed. Darius has to get 5 stacks. Any champion which can trade in and out, can murder him. Although he's strong early, against any other but dive comps he gets kited and murdered. Gnar is essentialy champion. For anyone with dash he's easy to deal with, for example Irelia. While Darius will struggle. Kassadin was tweaked number of times. His kit can be annoying but not impossible to anticipate or deal with. Also has rather low damage, that's why he's late game champion, when items gives enough damage to kill squishies with little base damage he has. Tham is getting nerfed. Champions with okish poke can deal with him. While he's strong for anyone who needs to be up close to deal damage. There isn't much "different plays" with Shen. He just keeps poking, dashing away or in and sustain. Unless opponent has sustain himself he is pushed out of the lane without a chance to kill Shen. Because he's just too safe and QQQQQQQQQ entire laning phase without any effort. Also can farm under tower rather well. Irritating.
FIrst of all, what's your rank? Since when are you playing this game? I think we got some gameplay differences here. -If he is getting a rework, will you know that it will be better than that? (adage: broken) -Garen has cooldowns, you don't say?! So has Shen. kek -That's again bullshit, you don't need to get 5 stacks to be a bully as Darius. -So imagine you get counter picked by Gnar, and don't have Champion such as Irelia, so what then? Is it still interesting or funny to you to play against? It's not like you can always pick Champions that can dash like Irelia. -So did get Shen tweaked some times. And that again counts aswell to Shen, it might be annoying but not anticipate or deal with it. "Low damage" is again some aspect, that you can't tell by that easly. Compare Kassasin's damage to Shen's. I think will both know which one deals more damage. -Getting nerfed, his shield is getting nerfed. Cool! The damage output is still there. I guess you like to play against him. As I said, I did mention some of Champions in LoL, would be cool if you describe for all LoL Champions how is it to be interesting to play against each Champion. "There isn't much different plays" <- This here my dear, shows, that you don't understand the point, why Shen-Mains are mad cause of his "Update". I guess you have none, up to small experience with Shen. He has way more different plays than you can imagine, he is my Main since Season 1. Discussing about his abilities, being all the same and monotonous is just naive and shows how unacquainted you are with him. **If you can't handle it, don't dish it out.** Rip {{champion:98}}
kurnubego (EUNE)
: Shen is getting it's rework, deal with it. Just because some other champions have some problems doesn't mean Shen needs to stay the same. Numerous people already pointed out, why it had to change. If you prefer to kick around and roll on the floor like a child, you are free to do so. Or quit playing league all together for all I care.
> [{quoted}](name=kurnubego,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=GYWtAW3b,comment-id=000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-17T02:18:49.744+0000) > > Shen is getting it's rework, deal with it. Just because some other champions have some problems doesn't mean Shen needs to stay the same. > > Numerous people already pointed out, why it had to change. If you prefer to kick around and roll on the floor like a child, you are free to do so. > > Or quit playing league all together for all I care. Lol, you obviously don't know why theres a forum. For something like that - discussing something, talking about it. Ofc I can quit playing League so what? I posted this topic to discuss about it, if I wanted to quit, I would do it without posting such thing in a forum. "Just because some other champions have some problems" What do you mean problems? Most of you say Shen is boring, that's the way of looking. Everyone has it own attitude.
kurnubego (EUNE)
: Problem is that shen's Q poke is different to other champion Q poke. Most champions you compared have actual drawbacks to Q spam. Run out of mana, pushes the wave, gets minion blocked and so on. Shen doesn't suffer neither. And the weaknesses you attribute to Shen are the same weaknesses all other champs have + their limitations on resource, aiming through minions and wavepush.
First of all, if YOU hit a minion with a spell, then ofc you will push the wave, that has nothing to do with Shen's Q. "Most champions you compared have actual drawbacks to Q spam." Tell me which drawbacks do they have? Vlad Q = Drawback? LOL Gnar Q = Drawback? Pushing minion wave? Handle it, try not to if you don't want to push, idk what your rank is, but you should be able to do it then Akali Q = Drawback? I don't know what you mean, maybe losing some energy? kek Olaf E, losing some health? Teemo Q? that some mana? I don't want to write all of those CHampion I did write. But cmon, "drawbacks." These were just a small amout of Champions I wrote, that can harass without problems. Get yourself together and think about it. As I said, because you can't handle something, doesn't mean it's overpowered.
kurnubego (EUNE)
: Is it me who launched the Shen rework? It's not me who decides but I'm one of those people who agree. And there are a lot of people who agree on this. If you want to read more on it please check surrender@20 where they interview one of the developers. Yes, if there is ability which does not offer meaningful interesting interactions it should be changed. That's called development, increasing quality of gameplay. Obviously there is limited resources Rito can spent on it so it comes gradually. Um, Shen's role doesn't change just because his Q got scrapped and new mechanic was introduced to it. Nor his Q was signature ability to begin with. Same goes for W.
There are also alot, and more than you think, that doesn't agree with it. Check up http://euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/page/champion-update-shen That's bullshit what you're telling here. "Increasing quality of gameplay" by what? Screwing the abilities by Champions? By using the same abiliets all the time? (three hit strike for example= morde, gnar, tahm, kindred etc). (passive shield for example= vi, kassadin etc) His abilities were unique to him. He lost his sustain, his small ranged farm tool. He got this goddamn new W, people will fortify playing him therefore as a supporter. Believe me. His kit was very good, maybe "oldschool'ish" but good. Making an Update doesn't guarentee a good change. There is no guarentee for it, that's why there's something called PBE. They gonna test it. Most of you always think -> Riot made an Update -> it has to be good. That's a quality bullshit.
: I KNOW how to play against him, and it's very very very very very BORING.
So it's more interesting to play against Yorick, Garen, Darius, Gnar, Kassadin, Tahm etc. for example? Everyone is different, maybe Shen is boring for you, so what? You can't change it to play against him.
: > you said "Shen will always Q you when in range". Which is simply not true. > Its actually more likely that Amumu will E you every time you are in range than Shen to Q you. But amumu's E range is melee so you can actually farm with him nearby without threat of free damage, shen's range is double that plus he doesn't get punished for Qing at the wrong time (at least amumu might run out of mana if he spams too much, shen doesn't even have that threat so making the wrong 'decision' isn't punishable at all). > And as such, you called Shen a binary no skill shot champion. I'm sorry that Shen doesn't have skill shots on all his skills. > Nor does Amumu, just his Q. Nor does Lee Sin, just his Q, nor does Zed, just his Q. Well, Shen has it on his E gee.... I see the problem now, its on a different key, darn it >.> The skill shot bit was because I assumed that by amumu you ment his engage combo with Q and R... That's what I meant by the skill shot... that he can mess up his binary thing and can be punished by it (in hind sight it makes much more sense for it to be the E... oh well). That's what I meant by that comment, that what I thought was the binary thing for amumu was inconsistent and unreliable allowing you to play around it. As with zed and lee, both of these are their in lane harass which they can spam... but due to the skill shots the harass is neutered as both can be blocked by minions (zed loses damage for every thing he hits) and both can miss, shen's harassment dont have these fall offs which means he can't really fudge it up, unless you misclick. Compare shen to panth... everyone knows how much of a pain panth is in lane due to his constant Q harass, that's what people who face shen feel... less damage but due to the lack of mana she can keep it up much longer... and notice how a decently large group want a pantheon update and for his Q to become a skill shot... shen might be a smaller issue but it's the exact same one. > Personally I won't ever play the new Shen. And how do you know you won't like it if you haven't played it... you might even like it more than old shen. I know what it's like to lose a champion you play in that way (old AD sion main...) But when sion got reworked I didn't reject the new sion, I gave him a chance and I still love him... So you never know, giving shen a chance might work out well for you.
Missing an Q is also "punishable", the enemy can go all in for it. Shen is dependet on his Q, it is his only damage dealing ability to harass, farming abilitiy or to heal up abilitiy, he has to choose. The energy cost isn't the real problem, the trading is the real one.
: > But an E fail build up again to kill or getting killed, because you make the decisions with your low energy. > Imagine that you're fighting some1 at Top, and you fail your 100 energy E, you just have 100 energy left, Again, not talking about the E, that's fine which is why it's not getting changed. I'm not talking about actual brawls where you have to use E... I'm talking about the farming side where the enemy gets filled with vorpal blades and they can't do anything besides give up cs... that makes laning against shen tedious, unfun, and binary. That's what is getting changed here, shen has to work harder for his trades and his enemies have an opportunity to prevent it making his laning more fun and interactive.
I commented your post before, theres nothing like "unable to farm cause of his Q". Honestly, if you can't handle it, it doesn't mean it's op. And his E builds up to his other abilities.
: > And later ingame, it doesn't deal that much damage anymore. It's good for his sustain in late. We aren't talking about his late game, it's his early game which is the issue. It's good poke which is unavoidable and repetitive... if you get hit by it there is no interaction with shen that you can take advantage of, you just have to take the damage... but when that is spammable on a champion who won't really run out of energy unless he keeps messing his E up then that unending spam of Qs end up becoming tedious as you can't really return damage due to his W and getting on top of him gets countered by his E. He becomes tedious to play against and near anti fun. That's why he is getting changed, so shen's fun can't ruin someone else's.
I don't know, I think you would be the enemy I would crush on Top. If YOU let him poke you, then it's your fault, you can do it with every Champ, every Champ can poke you -> Vlad Q, Gnar Q, Akali Q, Annie Q, Darius Q, Mundo Q, Illaoi Q, Lee Sin Q, Olaf E, Rumble E+Q, Teemo Q, Tahm Q and many more. These type of Champions are with low Mana/Health/Energy costs abilities. So they can also spam it, do you want it to be changed? You have to know how play against, not only playing as. I don't get you guys complaining about his Q making you unable to farm? Wtf? Jeez
: Shen, balanced? Ummm, no, not at all. His uninteractive laning pattern gives him a free ticket into an unkillable lategame, which was not balanced. It's boring to play AGAINST Shen, because he can just spam Q forever and heal off you if engage on him.
Well, obviously you don't know how to play against him. EVERY Champion has it weakness, go and find them.
kurnubego (EUNE)
: Wrong. It is to entertain me. It's a game and the main purpose people play it is to be entertained. And before you ask, yes Rito wants to rework all champions who have significant element of "just not fun to play against". Like Yorick for example.
So you can decide by one abilitiy that you're entertained? That's funny. THere are approximately 120 Champions, each abilitiy makes: 480 Abilitiys + the ones that got 8 Abilitiies. One of them ain't entertaining, so it's need to be changed? I would rather look into other Champions that need reworks. And not such a bullshit as changing a whole role for a Champion
kurnubego (EUNE)
: It's not about balance. It's about boring effortless game mechanic which is just not fun to play, but irritating to play against.
As I said, if something is boring, play another Champ there are 100 others. Shen Mains know, that SHen isn't boring at all. You can counter every Champion in this game, even Shen, you just have to know how.
: His Q had issues... might be all good and all for the shen player, but getting spammed with Qs is not fun to experience on the receiving end and tends to make playing against shen no fun, cause you can't really avoid that damage if you want to farm so if you don't out sustain you struggle. And you might like it, you might not... unfortunately that's the sacrifice that people like us who chose to main champions on the chopping block have to make... But you have 2 weeks till this rework goes live, I would recommend you spam shen in those 2 weeks and make the most of the time you have left with him (and its inevitable that you miss him, hell I still miss old sion after all these years, but this is a necessary evil and if you don't get on with the new shen you are gonna have to move on).
You just have know how to counter that Q. It has good damage early yes, but at the other side, his other abilities are risky and low compared to his Q. And later ingame, it doesn't deal that much damage anymore. It's good for his sustain in late. So actually SHen has to farm or poke a bit with his Q, but also have to be beware of the enemy, cause it's only his damage dealing abilitiy.
: > And his Energy costs were very high compared to the other energy users, it means, if you fail once your E, you have make the right decision to be alive, or even win a game. But we aren't talking about his E... That's healthy and perfectly fine which is why nothing is changing about it. Also don't forget that early game your energy regen typically regenerates faster than your cooldowns so laning phase (which is the bit that the issue lies), plus his passive regularly regenerates energy so his energy isn't an issue unless you are constantly messing up Es. Also remember he is primarily a top laner, the place where melees tend to reign supreme, but the issue is that adding any kind of consistent poke at range there gets toxic fast (that's why teemo is so hated, that and his shrooms). Shen can harass if he is winning lane and never let them get farm making the lane tedious, or if he is losing he can stand back and farms with Q, which stagnates the lane making it boring and unproductive as you can meaningfully touch him.
But an E fail build up again to kill or getting killed, because you make the decisions with your low energy. Imagine that you're fighting some1 at Top, and you fail your 100 energy E, you just have 100 energy left, means you can Vorpal Blade with 60 energy or do your shield with 50 energy, obviously ppl will Q the enemy. So you just have left 40 energy, making Ki-Strike = 10-20 energy back = 50-60 it means waiting for cooldown for Q again, with your low attack speed while getting hammered. I'm very bad at pointing something or tell something convincingly. The only thing I can say is, you have to get experience with SHen to know what I'm gonna to tell. It ain't easy how it looks playing Shen. Cheers
: Would you please link ONE comment, that says "Shens Q is too strong"? Shen can't farm and harass at the same time. If he uses his Q, feel free to engage, because he used his only Damage-Ability.
: Well akali is getting an update this year as well for the same reason... and Ali and amumu while are simplistic aren't binary and do require some vamp play to work (aiming skill shots and the WQ combo, shen doesn't have this with his W and Q). And I said binary not so much low counter play (that was a side point)... ez has choices he has to make with his E, it's a high mana cost and his safety plus some burst so he has to choice how to use it wisely (either offensively or defensively). Shen doesn't have this, there is no bad time to use his Q or W, he can just mindlessly spam it in lane without consequence or thought which makes his laning phase binary. The counter play was that there was no way of avoiding the abilities because of the lack of consequences or decisions, if you walk into Q range he will just Q without fear of punishment. And if you have read on I said that this wasn't really an issue as the individual abilities don't hold enough of shen's power to be a problem but it's still there.
You had to make also choises, are you gonna wait for your energy back to Q and duel the enemy with your life steal while you have also low Health, or are u gonna W and shield yourself. Thats game changing! And his Energy costs were very high compared to the other energy users, it means, if you fail once your E, you have make the right decision to be alive, or even win a game.
kurnubego (EUNE)
: Others want to have fun too. And that Q spam is nowhere near being fun or engaging.
The Q is not only there for you to entertain. It was his unique abilitiy for his sustain etc. I said it before. There are many other Champions that can annoy you with their spamming abilitiy, thats nothing compared to Shen
Serika Zero (EUNE)
: >It's not that his W was useless, far from it... It's that it had no gameplay to it... same with his Q it made playing as/against shen very binary as he wouldn't change up what he was doing and you couldn't play around it Rofl. Please amaze me at the counterplay for: {{champion:84}} spammable point and click Qs {{champion:12}} 's R {{champion:32}} 's R, and W and E. HE just pressed them and you can't do nothing to stop it from happening. etc This argument is stupid. There's many champions in this game that can trigger their abilities without any interaction from the enemy team. Shen's was a shield. Ezreal for example has a blink on his E and there's nothing in the world that can stop him from using it. Nasus and Veigar will get stacks and there's nothing you can do to prevent that, eventually they will get them. And much more. That's why, such an argument of "it had no counterplay". Simply because it was a point and click ability or being able to self cast (hey, Morgana's BLACK SHIELD), its honestly dumb. It has counterplay. You attack him -> you break shield. You stay out of his Auto Attack range+sunfire cape = that's the counter play for his Q. Or just brute force though it. Like seriously, if you want to nitpick on something. Pick something to nitpick that I can't pick another 40+ league Champions and tell you they all do this exact same thing with "no counter play"
Exactly, they had to change the other Champions also then. Every champ has it own techniques.
: It's not that his W was useless, far from it... It's that it had no gameplay to it... same with his Q it made playing as/against shen very binary as he wouldn't change up what he was doing and you couldn't play around it (seriously there is no counter play to an lock on spammable ability and a shield, it wasn't much of a problem but there isn't much someone can do to out play these abilities). The interesting part of his kit is the E and R which are staying the same. So he did need this, he needed more highs outside of his 2 abilities and lower lows which was stopped by his limited kit (no real out play potential). And of course the shen mains are complaining, they are effectively losing their main (which sucks, trust me I went through this with sion... losing your main isn't fun), but a lot of these have never played new shen they are just rejecting it, and while shen mains might not like it they aren't what this is tailored to (besides they keep the best parts), this is more tailored to everyone else who finds playing as or against shen really boring due to his binaryness... So give this some chance before you freak out, and if it doesn't work out then I'm sorry but you are gonna have to find a new main cause this is a one way trip.
Well yea, even if they would just change his W. I would be happy, but his Q? His unique ability to finish off, to farm, to harass, to sustain? Thats what made Shen - Shen. Believe me, you can also outplay some1 with just "2 abilities". But as you said, we have to give it a chance. Everything changes. BUt honestly I don't think that I'm gonna like it. I'm gonna miss the old Shen.
Cypherous (EUW)
: Nope, riot wont revert the change, adapt :)
It's okay when they don't do it. But they cannot say something like "We listen to our players" then. THe majority is "old Shen was best" Actually those games has to adapt to the Community :), without the players, how would this game work? Well as I said, some like the new SHen, but I don't. If I stop playing this game, no one will care also. I'm just using my permission and want to discuss about it, in hope to bring the old SHen back.
: Those Shen mains are just salty that their freelo is being changed, and he looks very strong with the update, I don't even know what the issue is.
I'm a Shen main since Season 1, theres nothing like "free elo" or something like that for me. I just want to play and want to have fun, as you say, it may be very strong, but why is it bad when something was balanced like Shen? He might be boring, but he was quite balanced. When people find him boring, they shouldn't play him, there are other 100 Champions. Just because something is oldschool'ish or boring doesn't mean it needs an update, people still played him.
v1rtue (EUW)
: Champion mains are never happy when their favourite champion gets updated. Fortunately they are only a small minority and Riot probably doesn't care about it and thinks about the interests of the large majority of the playerbase.
Well, the large majority is I think, that the most of the ppl wants the old SHen back. Why should I be happy when a Champion gets an bad "updated"? Getting an Update doesn't mean it makes everything better. ANd in this case, I don't like it, like the most Shen Mains. Never change a running system, ever heard of? Thats exactly the same, why change when it was actually good?
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