: Base stat increases don’t really matter, remember they changed bonus % pen back into total % pen so having an item that increases your % base resistance might as well just give normal stats. Plus there’s the issue again that this would be stronger on bruisers than tanks as a lot of the have high base stats which will result in the exact same fate as cinderhulk or gargoyles stoneplate. That’s the issue with balancing tanks... any buff to their items becomes a buff to bruiser items as well, and as bruisers are already stronger than tanks it doesn’t solve anything.
I am not sure I have made myself clear how I want the item to work, I want it to scale as a % from base stats. So it does matter, that it will affect tankier champions with higher base growth more than damage orientated champions. Just to show the point and not actual real champions: Item +100% base Tank 40 +2 per level; level 1 total 80; level 11 gives 120 Squishy 30 +1 per level; level 1 total 60, level 11 total is 80 Obviously this item is more cost effective on a tank than a squishy Yes even though %pen is total stats, a %base+ item will still be more effective on a tank and have a higher gain after the %pen, than if the item was on a squishy. Using the above example with {{item:3135}} that has 40% magic pen. tank level 11 with 120 MR, leaves 72MR remaining instead of 36 MR squishy level 11 with 80 MR, leaves 48MR remaining instead of 24 MR Again the increase in MR on the tank is greater than on the squishy, so putting it as base does matter to what type of champion it goes onto. This item IS a buff to tanks, and less so to bruisers, BECAUSE True tanks have greater base stats and base growth per level. So the **true issue with balancing tank items** is they are all generalized regardless of champion class **because they all give flat increases**. However I think that because LoL is aimed at a broad demographic, its mathematics is left to be simple so that its not too difficult. Ive seen people get very confused about operation order (of addition and multiplication when used in either basic, compound or a mix thereof) in other games and perhaps they wish to avoid that here. #Thinking-Warframe Terms like which stage its implemented Base, Bonus, Total; not to mention if Penalties effects have their own order so that Gross and Net come into play instead; and finally how its calculated, Flat vs Percent giving a three dimensional array of where when how its all calculated.
: > The first three all come under zoning, "you want to get damage on a target that isn't me, I'll damage you", where the AoE Amp potentially is more effective; Sadly the eternity passive is lost on but digressing. True tanks don’t deal damage, so this point is irrelivent... like I said a % increase of nothing is still nothing. Notice how out of the 4 champions you listed as good abyssal users that get messed over by the health only 1 of them is actually a tank... zac. The rest are bruisers (and vlad who is a mage) they are part of the problem, champions who abuse tank items until the tank item gets nerfed to hell. > While the 4th point revolves around CC cool-downs, hey but the best form of CC is death right!? Burst that before he gets more than just a Q onto your back-line. But to burst that Yi you have to go within 300 units of him to get that bonus, as a tank unless you’ve engaged directly onto that yi your not going to get that close if he’s killing your back line... and if you are your 2 seconds away from death if that. > is only recommended it as he is a sustained damage tank; however since he has decent AP ratios the meta is also seeing a more AP focused into carry mage items. This is more a reflection of perhaps the Over-buff of runic to encourage AP mages, without balancing the AP burst/assassin jungler vs what use to be more utility sustain damage tanks . > Though that, in my opinion, is an issue with how over tuned the the AoE effect of Runic/Ludens is. Nope thecreason is simply how bad tank items actually are these days. The items themselves keep getting nerfed because of non tanks, and anti tank keeps getting buffs... until the point where you get no meaningful power spikes, by mid game you loose 1/4 of your stats and late game your losing 1/3 to 1/2 of them, and everyone else is doing your job better. Why play a tank that will die instantly when you can build them full ap, die just as fast, and maybe actually do something before you die. > But back on track, having a look at the range of the items: > all have 325 range. > has a 300 range on the item holder's AoE effect. > its 325 range is perfectly capable of working for these item. But you don’t need that... both zekes and sunfire gets up to 6 more damage per tick with abyssal... nobody really cares about the damage from these, zekes is for the damage your allies get which is by no means going to someone in range of you if your engaging, and sunfire is a farm tool. Ike I said 15% of no damage is still no damage. Tanks don’t want to be buffing their own damage, that’s not the point... they buy this to buff other champion’s damage.... but if your item’s aura realistically can only hit single targets at once you waste a lot of damage from AoE mages (who this item is litterally built to support, it’s for follow up wombo combos), and single target champions don’t want to hit who your realistically gonna be near then realistically it’s a bad item. > An alternative (I'm not stating this as a proposed fix, nor balanced, or even a replacement, it could be separate item entirely), could be instead of affecting enemies in range to take more damage from all magic source, to affecting (non-self) allies in range, giving them a damage boost. Still doesn’t help tanks... you’ve helped support tanks but let’s face it they are the only viable tanks at the moment... your jumping into the enemy team, if your trying to support a back line you can’t. A better idea is simply to prevent the item holder from getting benefit from the item (similar to your idea but still the same mechanic of debuffing enemies rather than buffing your allies), so enemies in range take 15% more magic damage from allied attacks, then revert the range issue. You’ve now created an item mages, assasins, and bruisers can’t abuse, while also giving tanks a good magic amp aura that engage tanks can actually use.
Yeah the revert, with caveat that its non-self allies only, would work. On a side note of tank items, perhaps % base stat MR/Armour increase on an item?
Rioter Comments
: Supp / Mid. 99% of the time solo queue. As I queue as a support, I'm always autofill protected. Mid is the most wanted role, I get mid maybe once or twice in a year.
Exactly my point though, because you are picking the least favored role as your first choice, 99.99...% you will get it.
: Don't know 'cause I've never been autofilled. Guess it'd make sense to keep the immunity until you actually finish a game with your guaranteed role.
Never been auto filled, what roles do you pick? Support is usually the least picked role, while Mid and Top are most preferred. Meaning picking Support or Fill in either selection for the most part will give you support. Though I have had 4 man lobbies where our Support gets a solo lane, fill gets jungle, and jungle gets support... Riot Logic!? I think it doesn't looks at the groups as a whole and compares, but assigns players one by one in sequence.
Mcgalakar (EUNE)
: Are you sure, that what have you written is correct? According to Support page: >Dodging doesn’t cure autofill. If you play an autofilled game, you’re immune to autofill for a while and much less likely to autofill for the near future. If you or someone else dodges during an autofilled lobby, you’re just as likely to autofill in your very next game. Reading it the other way, if you are autofill protected, even if someone dodge the lobby, you should still be autofill protected. Things are different when the game have already started: >Unfortunately, /remake will count as a game against autofill protection. This is really rare for how difficult it is to fix, so we’re not currently prioritizing it. Sorry =(
> [{quoted}](name=Mcgalakar,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=EU6HZdEO,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-09-21T06:44:32.263+0000) > > Are you sure, that what have you written is correct? According to Support page: > > Reading it the other way, if you are autofill protected, even if someone dodge the lobby, you should still be autofill protected. Things are different when the game have already started: Yes remake canceling Auto fill does kinda makes sense, even if its may feel unfair. As you did in fact start a game with autofill protecting allowing you one of your chosen roles. However, as started, when other players dodge in lobby, Several times, and on more than one account I have had it so that I loose Auto-fill protection status and quite often get support on those ones ( when practicing usually queued as Mid with either Top for a change, or secondary ADC which is my ranked preferred role).
Rioter Comments
Luciferrx (EUNE)
: Its easy to gank low elo...But once you reach gold +you need more then luck to do a good gank especially with YI. And as i say you get "bots"players in your team 90% of the time.Thats why is hard to climb.If you dont help them they lose you lose...If you dont 1v9 you lose. Simple.I got plenty of games with real "morons"that were plat +even diamonds that didnt know shit wtf they doing.They were worst then bots and those players shouldnt even be allowed ranked.Yet is happening. As master yi you got no cc so ganking a lane especially if your laner doesnt have cc or root neither youre just %%%%ed. And if your team doesnt play well youre done for.Cuz you wont reach that 25+mins to scale. That doesnt mean yi cant win games..especially if he farms well and gets some lucky kills on the map.But that doesnt happen very often.So you struggle. I palyed yi too...i like him but his early is weak.Thats why i prefer {{champion:64}} because his early is way way better.And if you win early you won the game.Games end too fast.
Yeah I really like {{champion:64}}. Great clear, decent play making with gank providing both swift bust and clutch shields. Solo Objectives fairly early, or can fast take after successful ganks (especially if rotations and larger skirmish wins). Although his burst falls of late, going the more bruiser build {{item:1412}} {{item:3071}} into tank/utility items finish, never looses its worth. Its that playmaking utility that can work both in offensive priority engage/picks or defensive shield/peel similar to {{champion:412}} that has a huge skill gap between passable at the basics and professional beauty.
: Powerfarming till 6 is good but if you can get a gank then it helps a LOT. Nomatter what side of the map i'm starting on, both power clears lead to topside. So after you have cleared your camps, try to see if top or mid are gankable. If not, try to take top crab or reset and take the bottom crab. Laners shouldn't expect a Yi to gank before 6. So many times a lane will lose before level 6 due to greedy fights that don't involve the enemy jungler and they will cry for help in chat. Just ignore and focus on getting your bloodrazor powerspike. Anything you want me to explain just ask. I've played a ton of Yi (750k mastery points).
Totally agree, its opportunity only, and I really don't care (even as ADC main) who gets the kill, as long as Im up and my opponent is down. On a side note what isnt good is people chasing late kills so its a kill for them and no assists, while they die providing counter kill AND assists for the other team - which is a net gold swing in favor of them. As for clear pathing, I'm really a novice jungler, probably only done it under 10 times total on SR5v5. All pathing and timings are based on observation and study or other players and patch notes. Yes, that's it about farming junglers, similar to pure damage mage supports, that I personally find can be a gamble. Why I was so annoyed with the Qiyana who wasnt baiting out vlad's pool, so both tactically and HP loosing; spam pinging me, what does she expect?! I helped her shove reset once when she was low, a mini freeze once, and a counter kill. Likewise in top lane, I blast coned into the river bush and control warded it to make sure it was clear, but yas was already in the lane brush way before, and I barely got out alive in the poor 2v2 (more like 1v2 followed by another 1v2). In both cases, Is there anything I could have done better? Feedback appreciated.
Luciferrx (EUNE)
: Im sorry but...especially low elo taking drakes herald ..objectives doesnt really matter that mutch. If you wanna climb you need 1v9.Yi is good low elo cuz people have no idea how to deal with it.However if the games doesnt go 25+minutes youre done.. And in that game what cc enemy had...You can easily avoid lux q with your q and yasuo is just yasuo as usual. If you get lucky kills early sure if you dont youre out.Yi ganks are awful.When i played yi i Always ganked mostly top bcs they had cc like {{champion:57}} or {{champion:92}} {{champion:24}} .So we could easily burn flash or a kill.. Yi is weak early.If you get lucky that your team wins or play safe thats something else.NO 1V9 NO CLIMB.
While I agree that neutrals are less appreciated in low elo, its still an XP gold lead over their jungler, and yi is a farming late carry. As for lane ganking, Id only do that if there was already decent wave control / hp leads / vision. Otherwise its just not worth the risk. All lanes vision scores were half mine for the lane phase, I was not exactly deep warding, but getting it just their side of the river while taking scuttles or at their blue. Played another game of him on a smurf. Late invade from blue to red side, stealing their blue with help from bot duo, instant gank bot. Tripple buff again, full clears, Resteal blue into tripple. Snowballed my ADC before lanephase (pushing inner towers) was over with repeat visits if pathing and gank opportunity arose, he was something like 7 0 5 to my 5 1 5 on my first death. His triple kill going from 4 to 7 made it extra worth. though with a lack of grouping pushing inhib tower proved fatal as not all lanes pushed evenly, and their team 5 man death-balled. We had to concede an ocean before we grouped and closed the game.
: If you was the only one who engage then even that CC was not enough for you. Lux can miss the Q or already use it and have cooldown on it, Yasuo need time to use the knock-up and you can Q him when he start the animation to full dodge the skill and slows are nothing if you press R. And you had in team {{champion:31}}, {{champion:80}}, {{champion:246}} so all that CC was not exclusive for you.
True, but it was typical normals, very uncoordinated on three line (no ADC or traditional back-line mage, I count karma as mid-line as enchanter as follow up the front CC or peeling for the back) or even two line positioning (karma would be the only one behind our melee); let alone coordinating a flank from either I or Qiyana even considering one.
Luciferrx (EUNE)
: {{champion:11}} against cc is more then useless.1 simple cc and youre just dead.Thats why you have the q.A chance to dodge something. However {{champion:11}} early is bad.What ganks you can do.If you lose early game you lose the game.Hardly you can comeback now.Most of the games end in 20 mins so how exactly you scale?? {{champion:11}} can 1v9 ifhe reaches lategame...and enemy team doesnt have high scalling and no cc neither.Then yes you can win.Problem is reach lategame your team to play safe that never happens and hoping enemy doesnt have cc.
Doing steal into tripple buffs is easy snowball advantage, while your opposing jungle matchup usually has to resort to ganks... its a trade off I feel. Lane pressure vs objectives (scuttles/drake/herald). Easy to abuse at lower Elo, where games have less map vision/awareness, let alone jungle tracking, also they last longer; likewise easy to punish at higher Elo, with hard jungle tracking/invading shutting his farm down.
: I have a good question: where is the cc in the enemy team? If you didn't know, if you fight vs Tryndamere, Master Yi, Katarina, Draven, Darius, Fiora or Akali and you don't have cc in team then you have huge chances to lose the late. Try to play Yi when they have some cc and tell me if you survive in a teamfight.
Hard CC: Lux Root; Yasou Knock-up, and Suspend. Soft CC: slows Lux and Olaf. Ezreal was greedy on late Tri-force, despite triple AD threats. Yes, I totally agree. I was last pick or second to last so I dont think their team guessed (like people, other than nerds like myself, plan team comps in normals). When I was CC'd it was either dead, or coming out with under 100 Hp while in W, hoping to waste their time on me, or that alpha strike CD would be back.
Rioter Comments
: Except it conflicts with what tanks want to do. They initiate a fight then have 4 major jobs they can get done... continue to distrupt if they have continual AoE like zac, provide a front line to stop fighters from getting to the back line, shove the adc out of the fight, or peel assasins off their adc... The issue here is that abyssal helps with none of that... abyssal is best when you’ve got mages in your team as it buffs their damage (as later on you don’t care about your own damage, amped nothing is still nothing)... but at most you are close to only 1 champion at a time and unless the enemy team has totally messed up that’s not the same target that your burst mage should be targeting. Let’s look at 2 tanks who use abyssal the most, amumu and ornn. Amumu engages using Q and R then sticks to the front line where his W and E are most useful... this means he’s only amping magic damage against other tanks or bruisers who magic damage dealers usually can’t touch. Ornn is even worse, his initiation is ranged... at least with amumu there’s a chance you will get in range for a carry... ornn should never get that close. That’s the problem... yeah it suits tanks better being melee, but they aren’t going to be close to the right targets in order for the passive to make a difference... which means later on you’ve just got an item with no passive or active and bad stats. It’s AoE barely extends much past the champion’s model... and there are some champions who physically can’t use it because their models are bigger than the AoE.
The first three all come under zoning, "you want to get damage on a target that isn't me, I'll damage you", where the AoE Amp potentially is more effective; Sadly the eternity passive is lost on {{champion:154}} {{champion:36}} {{champion:8}}{{champion:82}} but digressing. While the 4th point revolves around CC cool-downs, hey but the best form of CC is death right!? Burst that {{champion:11}} before he gets more than just a Q onto your back-line. {{champion:32}} is only recommended it as he is a sustained damage tank; however since he has decent AP ratios the meta is also seeing a more AP focused {{item:1402}} into carry mage items. This is more a reflection of perhaps the Over-buff of runic to encourage AP mages, without balancing the AP burst/assassin jungler {{champion:28}} {{champion:60}} vs what use to be more utility sustain damage tanks {{champion:32}}{{champion:79}}. Though that, in my opinion, is an issue with how over tuned the the AoE effect of Runic/Ludens is. But back on track, having a look at the range of the items: {{item:3068}}{{item:3751}}{{item:1413}} all have 325 range. {{item:3050}} has a 300 range on the item holder's AoE effect. {{item:3001}} its 325 range is perfectly capable of working for these item. Regarding Champion Abilities {{champion:32}} Despair is 300 range and I am sure many other AoE abilities (though I concede exceptions) An alternative (I'm not stating this as a proposed fix, nor balanced, or even a replacement, it could be separate item entirely), could be instead of affecting enemies in range to take more damage from all magic source, to affecting (non-self) allies in range, giving them a damage boost.
: doesn't change the fact that spectres cowl is the most garbage item in the game you don't wanna build into
I accept that you have your point of view; but stating it without backup, nor providing counter claims to the opposing view's substantiations speaks for itself.
: You would think that but that’s not what happens... mages buy it first item as an offensive item... don’t forget it amps magic damage so it is a damage item while also making them tanky which isn’t healthy in the slightest. And the reason it isn’t viable atm isn’t cause of the stats or it’s relation to RoA, it’s cause to stop mages from using it the aura got reduced to a pitiful range making it largely unusable... for it to be a viable tank item again it needs to be put in a place where mages can abuse it again... at which point it’s gettubg nerfed again. That’s the problem... there’s no place abyssal can be where mages won’t abuse it... story of their life for tank items
While I agree the large range aura meant it could be abused by range/poke mages, I think the range adjustment means it suit melee and close range abilities, predominately on tank champions. So when said champion engages, all other magic dealing allies should be group focusing. The item does also have a synergistic build with either of {{item:3068}}{{item:3751}}{{item:1413}} and/or {{item:3050}}, however the first set isn't always used by AP tanks, and Zeke's is predominantly a tank engage support, or a rare late pick on melee tops/jungle.
: what i mean with uncosteficient is when compared to other MR options. You get a 250 health and 25 MR from it. You would literally get more effective health for buying Kindlegem and ruby crystal which is the same price and ontop grants 150 more health and 10% CDR. Buying Mercs would also be a better option because of the tenacity. if you buy Negatron and ruby crystal you get more efective health and spare 80 gold. You literally don't wanna build into spectres if all other options are so much better. Spectres used to give 40 MR and 150 health at the cost of 1100 gold. It's just so overnerfed and isn't a viable option against anything other than things like Teemo poison that proc the passive constantly and ''may'' help one survive.
Im not so sure... {{item:3211}} = 1117 gold (rounded) for 250 HP and 25 MR {{item:1028}}+{{item:1057}} = 1120 gold for 150 HP and 40 MR So either 100 HP more or 15 MR more... [Diminishing returns on damage reduction](https://i.imgur.com/hT5EnfY.jpg) This literally could be swings and roundabouts... In the extreme when you're having 75MR, making 15MR a jump from about 46% to 50% damage reduction, while HP works against ALL damage sources, not just magical. But even at the point of choosing what to get on first back of say 1300g, Im sure you would have from base stats and level growth at least 35-40 MR, not even counting runes if you planned based on match-ups (including especially their jungle pick, but overall their damage composition). A lot of early trades can depend on minion agro/advantage, which is physical damage. Additionally, the so called 80 gold you saved would actually mean you have greater sustain in short trades / poke, regardless of damage type. Besides which what are you going to build that Negatron Cloak and Ruby crystal into, the whole point of this post was how bad a spot Abyssal Mask is in. This leaves options that become quite situational depending on champion: {{item:3512}} usually late pick items on desperation split pushes, or niche builds such as ingenious hunter. {{item:3193}} front-liners with HP scaling mechanics. {{item:3091}} very auto focused, or otherwise terrible. Though this is off on a tangent from the original post, {{item:3211}} can at least nicely go straight into either: {{item:3065}} great if you have innate healing skills or runes. {{item:3194}} perfect for annoying poke mages, or machine gun mages like {{champion:69}} {{champion:13}} that are sometimes played top.
: Then mages buy it again, then it gets nerfed, mages go onto their other strong items and tanks are left in a worse space than they where before. That’s the issue here, your not just buffing it for tanks your buffing it for everyone, and like always when tank items get buffs something else abuses them and they get nerfs again. Changes like this don’t change the issue
Since AM has absolutely no AP scaling it could be considered a defensive option for a pseudo battle-mage, however this item is so poor to its damage counterpart in RoA that, tanks simply pick that for the raw HP (which scales harder into more EHP when they get armour/MR from other items and base stats), on-top of the AP bonus all for cheaper. Just to be clear though, I don't think RoA is over tuned, as currently the most favored AP rush item is simply Ludens for the easy and often extra burst AoE for either trades or wave-clear.
duh7 (EUNE)
: {{item:3001}} Is better when u have more AP dmg in team. Like u said that is item for tank and with it ur team do more dmg coz aura work near u on all enemy. Look at typical AP bulid. {{item:3145}} {{item:3151}} or {{item:3100}} {{item:3089}} and {{item:3285}} + {{item:3020}} and some item of deffence like {{item:3116}} ,{{item:3040}} ,{{item:3157}} sometimes they buy {{item:3135}} when enemy have realy much MR but i dont see it now. When ur team have 3-4 AP dmg implicated is a lot hire in tf if ur dont scale to good with RoA. Typical AP assasin dont have gold for {{item:3020}} {{item:3135}} {{item:3001}} {{item:3165}} that is waste of gold and time.
I totally understand its identity and purpose, the point is how its not cost effective. In the case of the most common standard meta of: 1 damage AP (assassin, control, or battle mage) main carry middle lane , 1 damage AD marksman in bottom, leaves three more roles for secondary carries, tanks, or utility support styles. If you do weight heavy into AP damage, this will give the opposing team easy item picks {{item:3111}} for all, {{item:3102}} for mages, and {{item:3139}}/{{item:3156}} for AD to counter the high magic threat. Meaning that the {{item:3001}} damage amp aura is needed to offset this. The problem becomes in its range and effectiveness, you wont get it affecting all their champions all of the time, while their items will counter your teams damage profile.
: But that wouldn’t solve the issue... it wasn’t the case of RoA and abyssal being stacked together, it was mages using abyssal in general. Abyssal is a tank item but when non tanks abuse tank items it gets the tank items nerfed hence why tanks are in a bad state and why abyssal is in the state it’s in now... it was heavily nerfed because of mages.
My reply was in regards to the fact that I suggest a reworking to Abyssal Mask, in effect buffing it, giving it HP/MR or MR/dmg-Amp scaling in a similar style to Rod of Ages stacking. This is why it would additionally need to be mutually exclusive via making it a Unique Passive.
: The danger of having abyssal match RoA is that mages used to abuse the item... going Veigar or cass and rushing it for increased damage and survivability... which resulted in it getting nerfed for everyone. This is a tank only item, so it should be buffed accordingly if it’s to be buffed... right now it’s not a bad item for them but it’s niche so you often can’t validate buying it. More magic resist options needs to be introduced in order to actually give tanks options, without them getting poached by everyone else
Tank {{champion:45}} IS a think though due to his passive. But in order to make these items more balanced, assuming there was a scaling {{item:3001}} rework, I would suggest that its passive would be Unique, so hence mutually exclusive with {{item:3027}} but also so that, duplicate stacking is **not** a thing... {{champion:31}}{{item:3193}}{{item:3027}}{{item:3027}}{{item:3027}}{{item:3027}}
: All MR Items right now suck. Their build path sucks and they are all super expensive. Spirit visage is the one MR item i can see that is decent but not too good either because it builds out of spectres cowl the by far most useless uncosteficient item in the game. If they want to make MR items good they need to scale up the HP they give and buff spectres cowl by like 10-15 MR so it is actually a good buy and not a wasted subitem slot. I also think that Abyssal mask is not right for a tank item. Like I can see the concept of a tank buying this to buff his mages overall dmg and maokai and other ability tanks can buff their dmg aswell but there is like no scenario in this world where a maokai would buy this over spirit visage which synergizes so well with him. Heck the only tank i see buying this item is Ornn and that's just because his masterwork upgrade makes that item actually gold efficient af and the best MR item in the game. MR items overall need a good overhaul.
As for the efficiency of {{item:3211}}, it cost 1200 gold and the base stats are 1116.66... so 84 gold for a component passive isn't terrible. I do agree with your opinion on {{item:3001}} as its just is not cost effective as either a carry defensive option over {{item:3102}} , or as a cheap utility tank item as it cost more than {{item:3027}} and scales nowhere near as well. Yes the {{champion:516}} upgrade is nice, but that just emphasizes how situational the base version is.
Rioter Comments
: certainly true damage* that is why darius and zoe deal some true damage :P
Kalista neither does tons/tonnes nor true damage... autos+rend is like just having a 120% total AD ratio. She has predominatly only had nerfs. Only recent minor AD buff, but so did several ADC's in recent two patches.
: i mean a champion such as zoe, who cant split push/roam as good as other mid laners (such as talon or a sol) can. and all of the above pretty much
Admittedly Talon and Sol are god teir on roaming because of speed, so can use tight windows. However, Zoe has decent roam potential: Decent wave clear as can nuke the casters which gives the minion dps advantage to your minions, hence wave push potential for giving roam window. With that roam window she can: 1) deep vision around mid, preventing their roams more, and tracking jungler 2) neutral vision / scuttle control, helping your jungler get a lead and safer sidelanes 3) attempt a roam herself, which with wall bubbles can get a pick.
: its extra annoying when you are playing a midland that can't roam very well and they say 'rep mid no ss'. they should know how champions work before they call for reports
Depends on what you mean by cant roam: 1) low wave clear priority so no opportunity to roam, then SS lots 2) waveclear priority but bad gank potential, then pressure tower and/or provide river and jungle vision (their raptors for example) 3) simply loosing HP trades in a bad matchup, well that might be drafting, jungler should either help this lane if its the only weak one, or snowball a strong one.
: I actually always ping when my mid adversary leaves lane. And still I get kids saying "why u no say ss" or some sheet like that. And when I tell them I gave u ss they say "well follow then!!!". I mean, what idiots. It's not even optimal to follow everytime.
Roams are coin flips, bigger reward (kill gold to one, assist to others) and better tower pressure / neutrals if its a successful roam (3 people in bot after double kill, vs solo mid still pushing), but its at the cost of less certain outcome (loss of XP/CS from mid minions). Counter-roaming, likewise, just stacks onto that in a similar way.
ShacoOrTaco (EUNE)
: I said you can learn while playing {{sticker:zombie-brand-mindblown}}
You cant play while in a queue was my point, but perhaps you are so single minded on your own point of view you cant consider others. Learning from your own mistakes in game is great, as in life some people can only learn from their own mistakes, and do not take advice or learn via observation of others mistakes and successes.
: Both of you are correct. {{sticker:zombie-brand-mindblown}}
Wannes (EUW)
: Thx, really appreciate the input!
ShacoOrTaco (EUNE)
: You can learn stuff simply by playing. No need to watch some1 else doing something
I said while you wait in queue... {{sticker:zombie-brand-mindblown}}
Wannes (EUW)
: Something else at work? I don't know... But you are right. I am 51 years old, never flame, never get too excited. Love the game, no matter what. I just play my games as a Support main, do the best I can. This is my anual reward... Third time now. 3 out of 3..... ......but still stuck in Iron, yes. I can live with that.... ^^
> [{quoted}](name=Wannes,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=0rX8XOv3,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2019-09-14T17:15:24.006+0000) > I just play my games as a Support main, do the best I can. > ......but still stuck in Iron, yes. I can live with that.... ^^ As a support (and also jungle) you don't need to time CS; as such at low elo you dont need to watch minions. Watch the mini map more, ping your other lanes when people missing. if you spot their mid/jungle in river roaming for gank, ping their location with mission, ping the champion using tab menu, warning ping the lane they are going to. For you specifically, and growing on the map macro mini-game. Wards, learn deep warding to track jungler, and BUY CONTROL WARDS! Lastly for all supports, identify who is carrying, and their spike, is it mid game or late game? If you have a mid-game snow-baller, stick to them, and help them carry team-fights more. Meanwhile have a late game ADC needing time to scale, let them catch safe lanes near your towers, and push out to river. Provide them vision so they dont get flanked, warning ping them if need be. Get them to back off at river if people are missing. If you are fighting a 4v5 top and their team has no TP, get that under-farmed behind late ADC to push out a wave and take a tower elsewhere, they will catch up on XP and gold that way.
Kurotsu (EUW)
: All the downvoters probably wont be reaching level 5 anytime soon
yeah but those down-voters are probably against his obvious sarcasm; riot employees?!...
ShacoOrTaco (EUNE)
: I never watch that shit. I didn't ever understand why people even watch how other people play if they can play instead {{sticker:zombie-brand-mindblown}}
Have it on second screen, while queuing. Some of the mechanical and macro out plays can be inspiring and teach a thing or two...
Salron88 (EUW)
: petition. Lets show riot we dont care about WORLD'S if they dont care about our game.
Ryze rework on spell flux (no longer spread on kill, but instant spread on cast with no spread damage) and removal of passive shield (no longer has passive shield on multi spells) has actually been for both competitive ( because too strong split pusher/duelist) and casual (diamond upwards has lost win rate, but platinum and below has seen significant rise in win rate for novice players).
: She had that interesting idea about the Q stacks interaction. But it seem to be very raw and undeveloped as result. She is kinda half-of-a-champion in that sense. Requires more refinement. For example, W simply enables passive. And does nothing overall. Active is not very useful. The auto-attack mechanics is also very raw. Wind up speed makes her behave like Graves. So she gets some power later when AS items appear. But the scaling overall is pure bullsh1t. So it hinders the idea of any actual late game. These Rito Guys do not understand that and instead they nerf her damage to Nashor, like that was ever a problem. As ADC, for sure Kalista needs something to stay alive to get even some damage... Or she needs some tools to better control her enemies. At the release Kalista had the possibility to kite away from enemies. But they quickly removed any kite she had. Now jump-backwards is very small. She needs some form of movement control, may be dash or dodge to disable the damage even for small time window. This is why she is only played with 3 supports: Naut, Thresh, Pyke. And mostly in duo. Because otherwise it is pure trash. PS. And even with these supports she is total bs. As fragile as Kog, with much lesser range.
> [{quoted}](name=galoisgroup,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=1e65zrEE,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-13T19:07:33.077+0000) > This is why she is only played with 3 supports: Naut, Thresh, Pyke. And mostly in duo. Because otherwise it is pure trash. PS. And even with these supports she is total bs. As fragile as Kog, with much lesser range. Actually Pyke is bad for her, both champions need kills for the reset, and there are not always handy minions about. Surprised you didn't mention Leona. WTF
: She had that interesting idea about the Q stacks interaction. But it seem to be very raw and undeveloped as result. She is kinda half-of-a-champion in that sense. Requires more refinement. For example, W simply enables passive. And does nothing overall. Active is not very useful. The auto-attack mechanics is also very raw. Wind up speed makes her behave like Graves. So she gets some power later when AS items appear. But the scaling overall is pure bullsh1t. So it hinders the idea of any actual late game. These Rito Guys do not understand that and instead they nerf her damage to Nashor, like that was ever a problem. As ADC, for sure Kalista needs something to stay alive to get even some damage... Or she needs some tools to better control her enemies. At the release Kalista had the possibility to kite away from enemies. But they quickly removed any kite she had. Now jump-backwards is very small. She needs some form of movement control, may be dash or dodge to disable the damage even for small time window. This is why she is only played with 3 supports: Naut, Thresh, Pyke. And mostly in duo. Because otherwise it is pure trash. PS. And even with these supports she is total bs. As fragile as Kog, with much lesser range.
How to use the Q passive on stacked minions: [Lv3, 2E 1Q, just Dorens blade; 3 stacks (120dmg) then Q (80dmg) for 200hp kill](https://streamable.com/6dyin) [Lv6, 3E 2Q, Bilgewater Cutlass; similar (Q 120dmg, E 180dmg)](https://streamable.com/nmgtm), admittedly I played this one wrong, should have auto'd the right caster before the Q to keep the stacks, then auto left for the E reset, would have been total of 5+Q not 3+Q. Auto attack mechanic needing wind up was so it required perfect positioning and choice knowing if its safe to attack or not, because originally she had extra jump distance going away from enemy champions so easy escape. However with that removed, the range nerfed to 525, so many more champions with; dash gap closers, AoE stuns/roots, point click CC; she is now easily countered. Q passive buff: Piercing spear: 1. All spear stacks are transferred to the target 2. Applies an armour penetration similar to lethallity based on Q level), per spear stack 3. Causes damage of 100%AD + Skill-Base-AD Q base stat balancing: probably have to reduce the base AD per level, see above. E Passive buff: applies Grevious wounds 20% + 5% per additional skill points, for same duration as slow. E rend stack rework: give it a deminishing returns formula similar to blade caller, because the 50% on subsequent makes it her so called burst ridiculously low, at present her autos including rend is like a total of 120% AD ratio... Xayah gets 120% AD just with Deadly plumage alone, and has a better scaling on her bladecaller still to follow up. Fix the damn critical hit animations making her following hop animation slow, and give her so critical scaling option, perhaps double stack spears on critical hits.
0PIUM (EUNE)
: Kalista
90% auto ratio at 525 range, even with Rend (E) its like she has a 120% auto ratio but requiring delayed / back loaded damage. Meanwhile Xayah has 120% ratio on her Deadly Plumage (W), is front-loaded, AND has her (E) to follow it up with a less punishing diminishing return, compared to kalista's half damage on subsequent stacks. Or Draven, 165% auto ratio plus 35ad level 1... yeah nice. That's just plain AD problems, while it compounds with Critical hits getting less relative damage from the items of other ADCs. Not to mention her kit has nothing that needs critical stats and in fact has the opposite, as critical animations are buggy with her attack/hop animations, so she actually doesn't want it.
: no but it's the reason i hate her.. i'm channeling my own stuff and suddenly my adc ults me.. wtf annoying as shiet
Channels ARE queued, so all channels finish before the next one starts. See fiddle-kalista combo for lols.
Cryptidian (EUNE)
: The jungler is not your personal slave
I agree that neither jungle or support is a personal slave. But generally speaking due to gold income (assuming good CS); there is three obvious carry champions in the lanes, followed by jungle then support. Likewise the jungle item as a first power spike is relatively good value for money, and support items are 2 to 2.5k unlike carry items more 2.8 to 3k+ Mid and Top have solo XP so will be able to hit ultimate power spikes earlier. Mid's position allows for map wide play, likewise top (usually) has TP. So a jungler providing a successful gank on mid can enable either a two man side lane roam or invade for vision/farm/XP and ideally buff steal; or ganking top could provide a TP/flash advantage ideal for repeat ganks and then cross map TP plays to bot. The meta of having a lane support in bottom is to help the slower scaling of ADCs (more so with items then raw base stats from levels) to get an advantage. If that small lead turns into a kill or force back on a major spike then neutrals; either instant drake or back into head to herald are up for grabs; and aditional grouping for plates and tower. As for camping lanes.... Depends on match-ups, snowball potential of champions (sometimes you only need to gank to blow a flash, repeat gank for a kill; if they use TP, cash in for free second kill: LANE CRUSHED and your top has TP advantage to dumpster bot with new items), early/mid/late scaling, gank potential (can they minion manage the wave), existing HP trades (something you should be watching while your jungler champ is autoing between abilities, or between camps). Simple rule of thumb camp winning lanes / snowballers, to get it going further, if their jungler comes as well you have advantage in 2v2/3v3 as well. A pretty please to junglers <3 though, if you do gank, and its only a partial success, (HP trade win), dont just leave, think if they need a back timing; if so the lane either needs a freeze their side vs 3 enemy caster advantage, or it needs to be hard shoved under tower for a clean reset and deny their side those minions. Heck after a decent HP trade and shove ;) they might help you get drake or herald.
Megimu (EUW)
: Morgana or Lux support silver Elo?
Morgana; a great mid line- enchantress (primary protecting ADC and/or artillery mages, secondary as follow up CC). Lux; although her support role is enchantress, her mid role is artillery at the back; unlike Morgana as a midline control mage with two hard CC and her ult definitely suits being in the thick of the fight. Hence support lux doesnt peel as with only one hard CC and a long range ult. I prefer morgana as she is more flexible for more team comps, and here is a 101 build (usual support small buys of {{item:2031}} {{item:1004}} {{item:2055}} apply)... {{item:3098}} first item of course, but dont finish the full 4 wards. Instead build {{item:3105}} for some decent tank stats so you can auto bully with aery more. With this first sub item you have a flexible build path for your first item for all in fights: Into the defensive anti burst team shield {{item:3190}} is better as a safe pick if you are not ahead and always to get if behind, it is more flexible from anything between 2v2 to full teamfights, and anything in between. While the win more {{item:3050}} is if your ADC is crushing with you in a 2v2 or even 2v3 if they are camping you and you still win. It synergies reasonable for you ult even though you are range, giving you a mini sunfire cape DoT aura with Slow; great for self peel vs melee, and helps a little on retreating targets to stay in your Ult range until the stun procs. Further more it gives your ADC burn damage on hit like a red buff. Its does require some coordination from you and the ADC to make use of the real OP stacked passive damage, and is harder than melee, but still viable. After this standard support items for midline-enchantress holds true: {{item:3190}} Emergency Anti Burst, always get this second if not first unless your team is flawlessly killing them. {{item:3107}} Planned team-fight zone control, great for regrouping or encouraging them to disengage, but needs timing/positioning more than locket. {{item:2065}} Again team utility (you are carrying by supporting your team) a really nice balance for utility, HP to survive in the fight, and a bit more AP to feel like that 5 man stun ult you did wasn't wasted if your team's follow up was sloppy. Win more items as support: {{item:3905}} slightly more expensive but good balance between utility support chase/disengage and AP carry, if you and your team are doing well {{item:3050}} true win more for your ADC, also gives you great armour against both their ADC and any AD assassins/bruisers etc. Situational baby sitting your ADC: {{item:3222}} they refuse to buy a {{item:3140}} {{item:3139}} even though they keep getting trapped in Veigar's cage and oneshot. {{item:3174}} black shield just isn't enough for your fed ADC and its more small fights, this is viable second item alternative to redemption. {{item:3504}} Super situational for moragana if the Zeke is paying off and fights are still small, but does compliment if your team is low on AP. Very last pick win more items late game: {{item:3157}} AD killing with burst, you need armour and a zhonya after your ult while your team cleans up {{item:3102}} AP CC issues, cant even get in for your ult from the poke and CC, banshees.
: Thank you very much for your advice! I'll write it in short on a notepad next to me and whenever I feel lost in a game I'll just look at it and use these handy tips in my games!
No problem. Supports are the most under appreciated role, that can hard carry the team via macro, and swing team-fight by multi tasking abilities AND item actives, yet its hardly noticed. XD {{sticker:slayer-jinx-catface}} Sadly they often plagued by fills... Top tanks that do greedy 3k solo lane items after Eye of the Aspect, could be worse... Mid mages building full AP even when feeding, not even completing quest item, let alone control wards. So keep up the good work, keep vision up, items cheap with actives and utility, and play around the strengths of your team, and you will climb faster than most roles.
IYI OYUN (EUW)
: ı ve analysed so many times, on my competitives on my soloques. im just looking for an eye from outside
Okay sure, I'm highly analytical, almost unforgiving so... One friend said he hated me at first because I was always right and such a hard task master, but once he got to know me realized how I try to cover everything that the team is dropping, without complaint as long as they are learning. I think very holistically and look for different angles for peoples views (assumed as argumentative), but its not I'm siding opposing views, I just like to explore ALL things. So would be happy to either watch a game and make some notes for you to look up, after the game, or if you want to do a watch together post analysis. Add me in-game if you like, if not I wish you the best of luck. PS, what did you think of the supports in that video? XD
: Support in ranked
Simple rules for support in lane: 1) keep your adc alive 2) help them get XP 3) help them get gold 4) do all of the above for yourself 5) deny their ADC gold 6) deny their ADC XP 7) deny their ADC life. Even little gold denies, such as harassing their ADC so they HP trade against you instead of CS, is a win for your spell thief (3) and a double win as they lost CS (5). If they take the CS, you got free poke for the less value of points 3 and 7 (unless 7 becomes a kill which translates to all other points). With Nami's great lane sustain and after your first back you are normally set: Almost always a control ward unless its a major item spike, preferable two (spare); river control, lane brush (lane ganks), while your normal wards hopefully are in their half of the map. Refillable potion, assuming HP trades this item literally pays for itself if you use both charges, after that either selling it or using more, is better than two normal potions. Not to mention how it can deny ignite kills as you drink them while the fight breaks out. Some manna sustain, translates to a safer lane and more poke before needing a back. Brown boots, really good on mages to get those cheeky aery spell-thiefs auto, as well as mini roams for vision. Once early lane phase is over (everyone has 6) and its now early game with rotations and/or extended lane phases; then you have a greater map area of responsibility with vision control. Get at least a bruiser, if not a tank to brush check for you, and place wards in them only after at least control wards are cleared, if not Oracle lens sweep for normal wards. Finally learn to macro. you don't have to CS, so you have all those split seconds extra where laner's are keeping an eye on the dynamic minions and their opponent. Vision, jungle route tracking, and overall map control, you can direct the other 4 players like mildly better AI minions ;)
To0om (EUW)
: kalista needs passive bug fixing regarding slows and attack speed caps
Lethal tempo IS effective, once one get the hang of cooldowns and animations of EVERYONE in a teamfight, there are windows where you don't need to hop and can stand still, besides that there is terrain abuse of wall hopping to free hit. Once you have a fully stacked rageblade and Lethal Tempo is warmed up (easily done with Q and a few kite hops), and that timing window happens between their cooldowns: its time to shred with BoRK %HP damage and a support Zeke/Ardent buff giving you some great on hit magic damage, pumping it out at 3.5 attack speed. In that eye of the storm moment standing still for just over a second or two you have just shredded a squishy down to a few hundred HP ready for an execute, while all the others hit in the runaan AoE get a tonne of shred and then bust, coupled with a slow for your next re-position, one or two hops is usually enough unless they are all so low its just running them down. Further more, Attack move click (shift RMB) and Attack Move (A, requiring a followed LMB) behave slightly different from my experience with Kalista to other ADCs, I believe it has something to do with how the subsequent hop, attack animation windup and next hop all play out. Shift+RMB, RMB feels better for fast moving dynamic teamfights with worse animation smoothness; while A, LMB, RMB feels crisper and good when their target has just been CC or is doing a 180 you know your next hop will still be in AA range. Especially if ping is heading towards 100 or more. I think the problem with the sloppy Shift-double-RMB is that the attack move calculates if it has to walk to then next target, so although the second Shift-RMB will trigger her hop animation, on landing it actually causes a followup attack move command, with the single frame walk to target in range calculation, and not an instant attack target, this again is exasperated by ping. [In this video shows some sloppy mechanics....](https://streamable.com/nmgtm) I did a sloppy Shift-double-RMB to the middle caster, with and a shift-RMB onto the left cast, there is a noticeable animation frame where she almost is looking to walk to the north east direction before the extra slow windup for the auto, because I didnt do a normal RMB hop on the second click. During the left caster auto at near the end so not to hop, I did a target change RMB onto the right caster, which sadly from the lost animations lost its stacks, though I think the timing window was too tight with my {{item:3144}} (best all round I feel as has sustain, enough AD for tower farming, utility peel/all in active) and for some reason was in the frame of mind of having {{item:3006}} (another good first item vs melee supports). With this right caster auto queued up, animation cancel with a buffered Q reaching jinx at max range, followed by a RMB hop. I was unsure what leona was doing; as previously I had cleared vision and blast cone placing a control in their tri-brush while she left ward ward at drake. She gets 6 on that play and was in no position to follow up, hence my indecision while walk towards my support a frame. If she was in position I could have instant Q RMB E for the reset on the left caster bursting and slowing jinx, followed an auto on the final melee minion and another gap closer hop to get into range after for another auto E reset. I would be interested in your experience of her sometimes slow animation hops from critical hits, (perhaps its just me, but I feel they clunky and loose a frame or two from a critical hit), have you noticed anything of the like?
IYI OYUN (EUW)
: PLEASE IM LOOKING FOR SUPPORT COACH! I AM PLAYING LOL FOR 3-4 YEARS
If you don't get your mistakes when they happen in game, then save your replays and analyse why you died, and how you helped save a teammate, or assisted in a take-down. Likewise do this for the opponent support, what did they do right you can copy, and they did wrong you should avoid. One person's mistake is an opportunity for the other to capitalize, likewise some's correct play can force the other person to panic in the correct counter play. Take this short [adc trade](https://streamable.com/nmgtm), given that blue team have previously denied vision and blast cone of enemy jungle, have a river ward at drake and blue ADC put a control ward in THEIR tribrush, there is no path for quick gank from red. Spot all the mistakes of both supports.
Rioter Comments
Declined (EUNE)
: Same concept, take screenshots as needed and forward them to support if you believe they warrant action.
TY, yeah I think the C-word (especially in the UK) is generally the most abhorrent insult one could use, and is worthy.
Arcade Lulu (EUNE)
: And even as an artist, drawing a circle is really hard
Agreed, the three dimensional coordination of your shoulder, elbow and wrist for a perfect circle (floating freehand, not pivots or rotating the paper) will tax even the most spatially aware.
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ThunderOrigin

Level 276 (EUW)
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