Zanador (EUNE)
: All right, this question will be important later on, so i'll ask it up front: Do you think Riot is flawless and that they have always found the right solution to any problem that arose? My guess is no, and we will come back to it. Most people i've seen who got banned had been reported in multiple matches, and the rest usually used a phrase from the zero tolerance list. A lot of them just simply didn't mention at the start that they have been chat restricted before. There were only a handful of exceptions i could remember, but i did not read every thread, so i might have missed a couple that you have found. And i'm not trying to ask the community to sort this out, i'm trying to do two completely different things: The first one is showing people who bring this topic up that a solution is not simple and obvious. Over the last 9 years Riot has tried the obvious ones, and i've been here watching their attempts. And you are not here watching the results too. Pointing out a problem is simple. Solving it is difficult. Second, i'm asking people to think and to come up with a solution, because of the question i asked at the beginning. Riot, as any company at this point would, has a history of misaddressing the problems, or giving us solutions that only cause more severe problems than the original one was. I can write a whole thesis on this topic based on Riot's balance decisions. So if possible, when Riot sits down to address this issue, i want them to have the right idea and maybe the right solution too to our problem, because this is not a topic where i want a half-assed quick-fix to ruin everything. And yes, and you have seen, topics like this pop up every other day, and they never get anywhere. A 2-5 people raise their voice in support then they go away and half of them won't even show up on next time. If we want to rally the community across multiple servers, we need to bring something new to the conversation, and i'll admit, that i couldn't come up with anything new for years now. That's why you'll see "automated" responses from the community: because we have literally read posts like this hundreds of time and nothing new came up in this front. Disabling chat is an interesting thing, but it is known why Riot won't do that: After chat restrictions were first implemented, a lot of toxic players asked Riot to completely CR them, so they won't be able to flame and thus maybe improve or at least stay neutral from the community's perspective. This broke down horribly, after a lot of these players started to vent their frustration by trolling or feeding instead of writing toxic stuff. And while V1zzerdrix here says that he only responds to flamers, if you read these kinds of threads, you'll notice that most flamers don't care about flaming, only about feeding and trolling so disabling chat would not do anything for a majority of the cases. Again, over the years i've seen this point attacked a lot, saying that Riot is lying, hiding the real info or that they simply made it all up, but that does not even matter: once again, there won't be any changes unless the community can bring something new to the table. And finally, your last solution will be implemented in the next season: S9 will be broken up into 3 parts, each bringing some reward. What's more, loading screen borders will be based on the current ranking of players, so honorable players who manage to climb will not have to wait 9 months to show it off to others.
Hey if you can't beat them join them. Since I was gonna roll a new account anyway I wanna see if I get banned for some heavy insults (still not gonna say the really bad stuff cuz I'm not like that) for experiment's sake. I hope Riot sees how %%%%ing greedy and stupid this system is and that there's a reason this community is considered the shit dumpster of videogames. Cya on a new account I suppose.
Zanador (EUNE)
: The report description was extremely useful back in the day of the Tribunal. Currently it is left in there for two main reasons. First, to help calibrating the systems. Flame detection is quite accurate, but for example in case someone uses their native language, it might be helpful to highlight which language it is. More so, if the flamer didn't talk enough for the system to accurately detect the language. But it also helps to slowly improve troll and feeder detection too, if you can give a time stamp or at least time frame of these happening. And second, it is there for new categories. We don't have a "report club name" option, so i just report the player's name and add the description of "we need a way to report club name". And people get caught for those "witty replies", because there is nothing witty about them. Ever thought while you read one of there how you have seen it a dozen times already? Well, the system probably has seen it thousands of times then. Also, aside of the zero tolerance list, the system does not simply look for key words. It is looking for patterns, but naturally, Rioters don't really tell us the details on this. The system was designed with false reports in mind, after all those have been a problem since the very beginning. But naturally i don't know how these interact with the system's learning function. My _guess_ is that controlling this is part of the Player Behavior Team's job, since they can tinker with the system, they just said that they don't do it often.
As for description, you're saying the bot is reading the language highlight? Cuz no one is reading them, right? You've seen plenty of unwarranted punishments around here, or will you deny it? Another big issue with the system is that it doesnt seem to account for percentage of "flame" in games played. People playing 10+ games a day are allowed to flame just as much as those playing 2 games a week, no proportion. I know it could sound fair at first sight, but in this environment it's really not, especially since punishment sets you to zero honor no matter how high you were. And the fact it was "designed with false reports in mind" doesn't mean it's been designed well. I may have my tin foil hat on, but it seems apparent to me that RITO is perfectly fine with punishing undeserving (of punishment) honor 3+ players since it would mean less free rewards to them. And ofc they will NEVER admit it, how could they? Zero tolerance and zero proportion combined with no real permanent punishment to heavy flamers and abitual trolls is just too convenient a scheme. We should tear this whole place down, metaphorically speaking ofc.
: How is this even remotely acceptable?
Let's add this one too (I don't plan on posting every single of these negative experiences clearly, but still this is so fk'd up: > [{quoted}](name=SaverWest HD,realm=EUNE,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=lEMd1lEv,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-12-09T17:14:18.684+0000) > > Well this is exactly what happened to me :) . > 6 (nearly 7) years of dedication to this game . Used to play 7-10 hours A DAY. On my account I spent around 400$ and I had no job at the time so I was collecting my pocket money and purchased RP so I can buy skins. I probably had over 8000 games (in all of my accounts) from which 4000-5000 were ranked. I lost my temper TWICE to people that were intentionally loosing my games for stupid reasons like getting red buff and starting inting because you took few creeps (this is exactly what happened in my games and that was in High Plat). Am I the bad person for loosing my temper TWICE in over 4000+ games because people decided to int/troll in my games and were obviously left unpunished. Do I deserve to loose all this progress because I am not a casual player to not care about winning. > What do you think happened after I messaged Riot support explaining what exactly happened ? ''Sorry but we don't really care about happened in your game but whats important is that you used meanie words against somebody else'', they don't give a %%%% that this moron lost the game for 4 other people. Is this how Riot threats the loyal players ? By showing them the middle finger after they supported them throughout the years ? > Now I am playing on this account and few others and every now and then after someone annoys me I start soft inting/trolling because I know they can't do anything to me. Did the punishment reform me? No lol, because now I am worse than before. Did they kick me out of the game ? No. So what was the point of my punishment ? Oh yeah, to make another account and spend my money on it. But Riot can go %%%% themselves because I am not spending ANY money on such a scummy company
: Screenshots are all well and good, but would you care to copy-paste the whole chatlog and post it here? The scrollbar and faded bottom text in your screenshot is telling me that there's a lot more to your chatlog than a simple instance of you blaming a teammate (which is problematic behaviour in and of itself, but obviously a single occurrence of it isn't really punishable by itself, unless you were coming off of a 14-day ban, which you aren't. So there's got to be more to it).
I did mess up the quote somehow but it's not my post it's a quote from another player. If you read the screenshots on imgur you can see the full images and there's the whole chat.
Zanador (EUNE)
: Right off the bat i completely agree with you on the /mute all part. That function is necessary, but the moment you are forced to use it you put yourself in a disadvantage. And if the only answer to a problem goes against the objective of the game, namely teamplay and winning, then we are facing a design mistake. The next part is a bit interesting, since there is already a zero tolerance list in effect: death wish, death threat, threat of violence, racism, sexism, homophobia, and stuff concerning diseases and illnesses are on this list. And if you look up the boards, there are a lot of topics complaining about how they got instantly banned after just one match, because they hit something on this list. So if you have replays of this kind of toxicity and nothing seems to have happened to the perpetrator, then that should be brought both to the boards and to support, because mistakes happen, but they must be corrected. But this brings us to the next part, which will seemingly be a new information to you, but it will answer so many things at once to you: There is no human oversight. Unless you send a ticket to the support, no human will ever see your reports or logs. Riot only reviewed reports manually up until season 1. But back then they _were_ an indie company (which became a joke recently), so they had to come up with another way, since League started to outgrow them. They invented the Tribunal, in which players judged other players' reports. It worked well and it was nice, but very slow and during season 2 the playerbase skyrocketed from 2 million to 34 million, so we outgrew the Tribunal too. Currently we have the IFS (instant feedback system), which emulates the Tribunal votes, and it is 100% run by computers without human interaction. It has to be said that the "context doesn't matter" attitude originated from the community back in season 2. There were and well, still are so many players who only look for the slightest excuse to start flaming or trolling, that we decided not to deal with context to make the judgments more predictable and standard. But it would be hard to change now, since if computers could understand context and human reactions, i would be more afraid of SKYNET than trolls. Similarly, trolls are hard to detect too, because a computer can't tell the intention of a player and it can only catch obvious cases. By the way, aside from the zero tolerance list, Riot hardly sets any rules for the IFS. It judges toxicity based on the reporting patterns it receives. For example if from this day on, it would never receive a report for the word "noob", it would eventually stop considering it toxic. This is why your suggestion of checking context and allowing mild toxicity if it was provoked can't be implemented either without a massive change. And yes, it would require hundreds of millions of dollars at this point. I could go on with this post, but first i'd like to hear your reaction to it, if you don't mind.
Well this is interesting. If there is no human oversight, what is the field in report description even for? And how do people get banned over "soft flame" as in no real offenses just "witty" replies? In this case, it all really comes down to reports. It may sound as a cliché but one of the things that pisses people off the most is being wrong, having the moral low ground. And in that case they will flame or report or both. So you might get reported a lot for many reasons others than actually deserving a report. Add to that premades, people who don't understand how the game works (complaining for the wrong or false reasons, especially if you jungle btw, I was jungle main but it's just too annoying to be blamed for every single thing to have ever happened anywhere). So if there is no human oversight and the program takes words you are reported for most often as a REASON to punish you, we can conclude that to be punished you just have to be reported a lot, rightfully or not. Sooo...?
Rioter Comments
Xantom (EUW)
: [](http://imgur.com/a/F4879ak) This is what an undeserved chat restriction looks like, you have complete freedom to share this. I have played the game many years, without hassle, always recieving instant feedback reports and helping other learn to play and not be toxic. Suddenly, after this game, I got a chat restriction, never been warned ever, never even done a bad thing before. It reset me to honour level 0 right before the end of the season. Cheating me out of my well earned honour level 5 (which I think I was one of the first people to achieve). I actually contacted player support, in which(I can post the correspondence), they blatantly deny any responsibility and infer themselves I hadn't actually done anything wrong. I quoted their "summoners code" to them, which they had said I had broken in this chat log. I pointed out each part of the code, and shown I had not. They replied calling me stupid (IRONIC I WAS THE ONE CHAT RESTRICTED) and basically told me I need to learn to read better. The player support is appalling, has never helped me in the past when I have brought up homophobia against me ( I sent a ticket showing clear evidence of it, yet that person was still playing which our so much as a ban) yet here I was, being chat restricted for nothing. Anyone who claims this system is fair, has not experienced the very clear, lacking ability of both the automation and staff involved in "supporting" players. I was going to take it further, however, they provide no links, no point of contact and are secretive. I scoured everywhere to find out an office number to no avail. If you are punished unfairly, as like in my chat restriction, don't bother doing anything, the company does not care about its loyal playerbase. It cares only about money and publicity. It is certainly clear, hell, support even suggested I play a different game. GREAT way to keep your playerbase huh? Edits: http://imgur.com/a/F4879ak - Chat Log The context to these logs is as follows: I was being flamed, being called '%%%%%%ed', told I was inting. All whilst they blamed me for losing and called me an idiot and worse. Hence why I say "lose one game=idiot" I merely quoted what they said to me. The only 'insult' I used was calling them flamers, which is the nicest thing you can say to someone that calls you '%%%%%%ed'.
> [{quoted}](name=Xantom,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=lEMd1lEv,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-12-09T01:58:41.202+0000) > > [](http://imgur.com/a/F4879ak) This is what an undeserved chat restriction looks like, you have complete freedom to share this. > > I have played the game many years, without hassle, always recieving instant feedback reports and helping other learn to play and not be toxic. > > Suddenly, after this game, I got a chat restriction, never been warned ever, never even done a bad thing before. It reset me to honour level 0 right before the end of the season. Cheating me out of my well earned honour level 5 (which I think I was one of the first people to achieve). > > I actually contacted player support, in which(I can post the correspondence), they blatantly deny any responsibility and infer themselves I hadn't actually done anything wrong. I quoted their "summoners code" to them, which they had said I had broken in this chat log. I pointed out each part of the code, and shown I had not. > > They replied calling me stupid (IRONIC I WAS THE ONE CHAT RESTRICTED) and basically told me I need to learn to read better. The player support is appalling, has never helped me in the past when I have brought up homophobia against me ( I sent a ticket showing clear evidence of it, yet that person was still playing which our so much as a ban) yet here I was, being chat restricted for nothing. Anyone who claims this system is fair, has not experienced the very clear, lacking ability of both the automation and staff involved in "supporting" players. > > I was going to take it further, however, they provide no links, no point of contact and are secretive. I scoured everywhere to find out an office number to no avail. > > If you are punished unfairly, as like in my chat restriction, don't bother doing anything, the company does not care about its loyal playerbase. It cares only about money and publicity. It is certainly clear, hell, support even suggested I play a different game. GREAT way to keep your playerbase huh? > > Edits: > http://imgur.com/a/F4879ak - Chat Log > > The context to these logs is as follows: I was being flamed, being called '%%%%%%ed', told I was inting. All whilst they blamed me for losing and called me an idiot and worse. Hence why I say "lose one game=idiot" I merely quoted what they said to me. The only 'insult' I used was calling them flamers, which is the nicest thing you can say to someone that calls you '%%%%%%ed'. I don't think you should let this go. Post it EVERYWHERE until they can't hide behind their BS anymore. They get away with they crap because people like you don't want to waste their time on this despite being right. But you're in the position to set a precedent and improve this game for good, I do believe that. Keep talking about this on boards, reddit etc... it's just too stupid to let it go bro.
Fendokil (EUW)
: Can we stop giving riot shit?
Gladly, as soon as Riot stops giving us shit.
NooBoTF0rU (EUNE)
: i sent a ticket and they rejected me Hey there, Avadastro here to answer your call! I checked the case and I'm sorry but the suspension will need to stand. You went way too far threatening to kill anyone's son for whatever reason. You never clarified why you said such a thing and kept going even when, as per your own admission, the other player asked you to stop even threatening you with a ban. I'm sorry but even if you were just roleplaying, you shouldn't ever say something like that as it's easy to misunderstand for anyone who's not in on the joke. Since you never clarified, that other player never had a chance of understanding your threat, real or not, as anything other than a threat. To clarify: Please do not do this again even if you tell the other player that you're just roleplaying - this is not okay! Keep things friendly and make jokes but stop when it comes to serious topics like this! The suspension was correctly applied. This exactly one of those cases where we can skip the regular penalty path - wishing/threatening harm on another player or their loved ones is completely forbidden in League, for any reason. Hope this helps but please let me know if you have any other questions or concerns! Wish you all the best and I hope you'll have a great day. Kind regards, Avadastro Player Support Specialist
This is the problem with giving the power to judge to people with no experience in law, Avadastro. At least I assume you don't have any, given your reply. You see while it's correct that "wishing/threatening harm on another player or their loved ones is completely forbidden in League, for any reason.", this case does not qualify as such! The lore backstory between Thresh and Lucian's son in not a "reason" for which he's "threatened a loved one", it just completely changes the nature of his words making them unqualifiable as a threat in the first place. I hope you can undestand the difference, it's a big one. And for god's sake RITO you're full of money hire some experts and/or more people overall, this community needs proper managing, the current situation is unbearable.
Zanador (EUNE)
: Ah, this topic again. Before anything else: i've read and understood every post in here. You correctly point out that there is a flaw in the system, since banned players can just start a new account and keep on playing. Along with this there are many known issues. The question is: what solution do you offer? I don't think that even Febos would argue that the current system is perfect and flawless. Everybody on the boards know the problems. But simply nobody in the last 10 years could come up with the solution. I've read hundreds of posts like yours and not a single one could offer a good solution. The problems: IP bans: as mentioned before, VPNs, proxy servers and simply dynamic IP can get past this easily. If i were to get an IP ban, i would just have to restart my router, wait the 2 minutes it takes for it to boot up and start my new match. And the next player who randomly gets my banned IP will not understand why he got banned suddenly. Identification for registration: You didn't bring it up, but it is a common suggestion. There are two main problems here again: Even in countries where this system is in place it is not flawless either. In Korea for example, there is a big market for social security codes that are required in every registration in every game. There is also the problem with the lack of centralized identifications. Even in the USA, people are not given an ID card by default, so right on their home server, Riot would have no way of implementing this system. Troll detection: Again, the problem is simple: all it takes for a human a look at a replay to identify i troll or feeder in most cases, but for a computer it's almost impossible. Automated troll detection is actually improving over time, but at an agonizingly slow rate, and it would take years or decades for it to become useful at the current rate. So without human oversight there isn't much we can improve now. But League is just too big. Even if every active player only plays one game each day, Riot would have to check 5-8 million matches each day, so complete human oversight is simply not possible. So without going into anything else in your opening post in the first round, i repeat the question: What is your proposed solution?
Ok, I suppose we can agree there is no immediate _complete_ solution to permaban people. So where do we go from there? Well I have kind of already said it actually: If Riot can't guarantee that even the most toxic players are removed from the game, they have no right to punish the ones talking back to said players. Let me elaborate on that. First of all let's remove /mute all from the equation. It's a possible, VERY suboptimal solution. If you do it a the start of every single game you lose a lot in communication. If you wait for flame to happen before muting, damage is already done. Next: if someone flames me or anyone else HARD (examples from before, especially deaths wishes, diseases, family stuff etc..) right now I am not allowed to reply in any unfriedly way. Nothing that could be considered toxic by a review following the report I would be likely to receive. It's also interesting to take note how chat logs are always out of context: Riot is telling us it doesn't matter how hard you were insulted, provoked and so on, only what you said matters. **Do the people reviewing us even get to see the whole chat or just the reported player's?** Anyway, we basically have to shut up, fine, but the one thing that would make it fair would be the knowledge that the perpetrator would be punished if we report it to Riot. And here's the thing: as I've already said, such punishment is EXCLUSIVELY a thing if the flamers cares about rewards. I've seen a LOT of people saying "I'll just buy another level 30 account for 10$, boom done!". And it's fair to assume either this or rerolling from level 1 is perfectly fine with many people who don't say it. ----------------------------------- So here's my solution (well it's an improvement, we've already established there is no clean solution). 1) Increase the amount of keywords and/or add a new cathegory for heavy flame (hate speech needs to include more offenses since it's seems to be the most serious cathegory but doesn't include the aforementioned ones). 2) Take into account context in "mild flame". This may be selfish on my side but since Riot can't punish heavy flamers properly at least let us reply, don't force us to sit there and take it. Obviously if the replies take it too far there should still be punishment, but there should be more tolerance to a guy that says "stfu trash" to someone who wishes death to his all family. And before you object that talkin back will only cause more flame overall, that's really debatable. That kind of people will just be spamming and insulting whether you reply or not. If you are allowed to not be a pushover, they might actually stop, it's happened to me multiple times. 3) Pay more people to review chats/games. Simple as that, I'm sure they can afford it, obviously we don't have the data and we can imagine there will never be ENOUGH reviewers to solve the problem completely, but the situation can be improved for sure. All in all there are no real solutions but just ways to make it better, and definitely more fair.
: A look at Riot's policy
I think that since we obviously like the game, might as well try and do something about it. 1) Permanent punishment for repeated flame. If not feasible, at least insta-ban for hardcore flame. Not just someone calling you "idiot" in a bad day, but at least all the family/disease/death related stuff. 2) No punishment for clean chat logs, or at least add clear motivation when there is no flame. As long as enough people care Riot will have to listen. Especially now that it seems veterans are getting banned too. The already insane amount of time it takes to climb in honor should have been a tell about how this was gonna play out. And just to make it very clear for Febos here, if it were up to me I would tolerate most excpet the aforementioned heavy flame. Free speech you know. As long as I can do the same. But if I have to behave, it's only fair everyone else has to as well. Not a matter of being "hurt" by words, it's the injustice that pisses me off. It really comes down to people who care about being banned and people who don't. The main purpose of bans should be removing the problematic player from the community. In league it doesn't happen. League bans just make you play (grind) more league.
Kyle001 (EUW)
: Goodbye
Hey you don't have to pay Rito for skins if you get them for free as rewards. Who cares if you've been nice for 300+ games if they can block your rewards for ONE (even if you did int btw, shouldn't be enough to issue 14 days...)
: >But can they not or WILL they not? Because IP-banning all the hardcore flamers would hit their playerbase too hard? IP bans are not a thing. That's the problem. And it's not riot's fault they aren't a thing.
> [{quoted}](name=GonahtanuGepardi,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=lEMd1lEv,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-12-08T16:18:17.490+0000) > > IP bans are not a thing. That's the problem. And it's not riot's fault they aren't a thing. I've seen ONE person playing with VPN to dodge an IP-ban. Are you saying Riot is actually issuing a good amount of IP bans but VPNs dodge them? I don't think that nearly enough are being issued. At least VPN is an added discomfort, force people to use it, it's better than nothing.
Febos (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=V1zzerdrix,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=lEMd1lEv,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-12-08T15:58:35.123+0000) > > My problem is I consciously refuse to shut up in some situations Why? Is your ego that large? *** > [{quoted}](name=V1zzerdrix,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=lEMd1lEv,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-12-08T15:58:35.123+0000) > > And mind **it's not like I insult them back, not heavily at least** > There are ways to respond to insults without insulting and I usually resort to those. You're contradicting yourself. You either insult or you don't. There's no middle term here. *** > [{quoted}](name=V1zzerdrix,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=lEMd1lEv,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-12-08T15:58:35.123+0000) > > BUT that's still enough to have me punished in the long run. I will never trigger an auto-punishment but I do get restricted over time since I play a lot and the reports I receive while meaningless by their own, do add up appearently. If you **never** insult someone else, it doesn't matter how long it takes because you'll **never** be punished. "Meaningless" reports don't add up because "meaningless" reports are discarded. By meaningless I assume not valid. However, if those reports are valid, because of something you said, then they're not meaningless. One may not get you punished on first offense, but do it often enough and you eventually will. So, which one is it: do you insult or do you not? *** > [{quoted}](name=V1zzerdrix,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=lEMd1lEv,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-12-08T15:58:35.123+0000) > > If Riot is telling me "ignore them, mute them, don't reply to them no matter what", FINE, I can accept that **IF** Riot will deal with them in my place. Implying you "talking back" to them will change anything. It really doesn't, thus why you shouldn't talk back at all. Besides, you're doing your part if all you are doing is reporing toxic behaviour. You don't **need** to talk back. *** > [{quoted}](name=V1zzerdrix,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=lEMd1lEv,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-12-08T15:58:35.123+0000) > > But here's the thing. Riot WON'T deal with them. A ban is meaningless if said flamer can just jump back in game on a fresh account to flame even harder. Again, implying whatever you tell them, the flamers, will change anything about their behaviour. It won't. You're just another random player and most flamers won't give two shits about what a random player is telling them. Your only viable option is to report them. Toxicity is eventually dealt with, even if it takes banning the same players more than 20 times. *** > [{quoted}](name=V1zzerdrix,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=lEMd1lEv,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-12-08T15:58:35.123+0000) > > Basically Riot is trying to enforce a paternalistic policy by removing from players the ability to defend themselves by talking back to offenders There's no such thing as "defeding yourself from words". Words can't hurt you. Words from a random stranger only have as much power as you give them. Sure, if someone is mentality unstable, then those words might trigger something, but those words aren't the reason why the trigger exists in the first place. *** > [{quoted}](name=V1zzerdrix,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=lEMd1lEv,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-12-08T15:58:35.123+0000) > > If you wanna make us into sissies who either shut up and take it You look more like a sissie if you "talk back" because your ego is that fragile. *** > [{quoted}](name=V1zzerdrix,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=lEMd1lEv,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-12-08T15:58:35.123+0000) > > But can they not or WILL they not? Because IP-banning all the hardcore flamers would hit their playerbase too hard? IP-bans don't work. Try something else. *** *** You know what's really interesting? You not using your main account. Feels like you are trying to hide something. Do you not believe your own words? What are you afraid off? https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/7/7d/LoL_Facebook_Icon_21.png/revision/latest?cb=20161029214053
> [{quoted}](name=Febos,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=lEMd1lEv,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-12-08T16:44:50.518+0000) > > Why? Is your ego that large? > *** > > You're contradicting yourself. You either insult or you don't. There's no middle term here. > *** > > If you **never** insult someone else, it doesn't matter how long it takes because you'll **never** be punished. "Meaningless" reports don't add up because "meaningless" reports are discarded. By meaningless I assume not valid. > > However, if those reports are valid, because of something you said, then they're not meaningless. One may not get you punished on first offense, but do it often enough and you eventually will. > > So, which one is it: do you insult or do you not? > *** > > Implying you "talking back" to them will change anything. It really doesn't, thus why you shouldn't talk back at all. > Besides, you're doing your part if all you are doing is reporing toxic behaviour. You don't **need** to talk back. > *** > > Again, implying whatever you tell them, the flamers, will change anything about their behaviour. It won't. > You're just another random player and most flamers won't give two shits about what a random player is telling them. Your only viable option is to report them. > > Toxicity is eventually dealt with, even if it takes banning the same players more than 20 times. > *** > > There's no such thing as "defeding yourself from words". Words can't hurt you. Words from a random stranger only have as much power as you give them. > > Sure, if someone is mentality unstable, then those words might trigger something, but those words aren't the reason why the trigger exists in the first place. > *** > > You look more like a sissie if you "talk back" because your ego is that fragile. > *** > > IP-bans don't work. Try something else. > *** > *** > You know what's really interesting? You not using your main account. Feels like you are trying to hide something. > Do you not believe your own words? What are you afraid off? > > https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/7/7d/LoL_Facebook_Icon_21.png/revision/latest?cb=20161029214053 So refusing to be a spineless victim means having a large ego, snowflake detected, gotcha. Responding to insults doesn't mean insulting back. Those are two different things hance there is no contraddiction. Reports meaningless on their own (as in, with no actual flame, just a lot of chat discussion) still do add up because of people whom are either easily offended and/or just bitter about being wrong, hence issuing the report. And if your behaviour, as right as you might be, upsets a whole bunch of wrong players, Riot will go with the majority. Remember the Singed incident? Or the tryndamere that was going 20 deaths while WINNING games for his team? The fact that the report itself is sometimes enough a reason for punishment is deeply wrong. If words can't hurt me (absurd btw, it really depends on which words, you don't need to be mentally sick to be hurt by words), then why even ban or chat restrict people at all? Hmmm... Anyway yes, I don't **need** to talk back, but I want to talk back because we don't live in a rainbows & flowers world and like it or not people have a right to verbally defend themselves, ESPECIALLY when the superior authority can't do it. It's my understanding that if someone calls you names you just stand there and take it? Or you just turn around an walk away every single time (i.e. mute button)? That's an interesting view, to never ever talk back. I think it's called "slave mentality" in psychology.
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V1zzerdrix

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