: Can you quote the specific part that, in your opinion, says that you are allowed to insult once someone else insulted you first?
How about you go there and read it?
: > As soon as the person does, you are legally allowed to insult them back. That is not at all how it works. Show me the laws that says that. Don't bother to search for it, it doesn't exist. And, as was already explained to you: League is a private space, Riot makes the house rules. The law is not the only thing that matters here and Riots punishments are no legal punishments, they just show you the door out of their private space, which is absolutely within their rights. > It's only Riot that doesn't want to regard the context That part is correct, just your reason is incorrect. They don't regard context because that doesn't make sense. Literally everyone has context for literally everything he does. Context or a reason are no excuse, they are an explanation. That's not the same. Having a reason is no justification. Everyone has a reason for everything, even the worst criminals in human history had reasons. That doesn't make make what they did okay, even if their actions would be understandable. Regarding context thought through would allow EVERYTHING.
This is honestly so tiring. You should be old enough to read a wikipedia article about Beleidigung where the law is cited. I'm probably way too optimistic when I hope that you will read it and understand it, but here you go. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beleidigung_(Deutschland)#Rechtfertigung
: What to do when someone is deliberately trolling?
Mute and report and hope for the best. Don't try to get justice by defending yourself in chat or even after the game. They ban you for it and ignore what the flamer did.
: > [{quoted}](name=cinchiller,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=lyUAKjnB,comment-id=0002000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-11T20:26:24.204+0000) > > My point is that the system is deeply flawed. Noone should be banned for reacting to verbal abuse. > > They will change their policy if enough people complain about it. Well, this is your opinion and I don't think the majority would agree with you.
Then why does basically every country have laws to allow exactly that? You realise laws are made by the people and according to what the people actually want, right? They are not made by a private company like Riot, that is not even close to a democratic state. If anything League players will have an even bigger desire for justice due to the nature of the game. Why doesn't Riot make a poll?
: >During the game I was the only one who told my team to mute him and_** I didn't even say anything to the flamer,**_ But you DID, and that's where the issue lays. In what you said: > c: nice waste of time > c: time to %%% > c: well you sure do care > c: otherwise you wouldnt post your op gg > c: yes > c: you will someday %%% > c: such a dumbass And it's quite obvious at this point you're still interacting with the person, as there is back and forth responses, so it's not something you said to "thin air". >Ironically they even said to me in the support ticket where I appealed my ban that I should mute people . Wouldn't suprise me, if they just copy pasted that reply since I did exactly that in the game. Your ticket does get reviewed by a real person, that I can assure you. Did you get a copy paste response? More than likely. The amount of tickets these people handle daily means that if you wanted a personally typed response each time, the ticket response time would likely increase 10-fold, if not longer. >The result of that game was that we managed to win 4v5 and my teammates honored me. So explain to me, how I worsened their experience during that game. Right here: > c: nice waste of time > c: time to %%% > c: well you sure do care > c: otherwise you wouldnt post your op gg > c: yes > c: you will someday %%% > c: such a dumbass Homophobic slurs and an acronym, that as a community in general frowns upon, is when you start negatively impacting others. Both of them should just really... never be used, and to be quite frank I'm baffled as to why you're so adamant in defending using terms like this. In regards to your other post: >Of course it does. It's the least I could do in that situation to get some justice since Riot doesn't punish people at all unless they use a buzzword that triggers their automated monitoring system, which they admitted to using in the terms of service. But that's NOT how the punishment system works. There are certain words that trigger a harsher response yes, but just because those words weren't used, doesn't mean that person doesn't get punished. If it's a regular pattern of behaviour that is displayed, I'd be willing to bet that they will receive a restriction of some sort shortly, if they haven't already. If it was a one off, then possibly not, as the system does tend to recognise we're human and have bad days (and no, this does not excuse the level of words/acronyms you have used here). It will compile evidence over the games they're reported for, and if they are deemed to be toxic to the point of needing a restriction, thats what happens. You literally have no way of knowing whether this person has been punished or not anyway >I have saved profiles of some of the players that were the most toxic ones in my games and at least 70% of them are still active while I don't know if the others even got banned or just stopped playing. I'll say again: You literally have no way of knowing whether this person has been punished or not anyway Just because they were toxic in the games you experienced with them, doesn't mean: 1. They haven't had a chat restriction (you get two of these before a 14-day ban normally, unless using zero tolerance things _ typically._ ) 2. You have no way of knowing how their behaviour is in current games. Your game may have been a bad day. They may have reformed. You simply just don't know. >I got maybe 1 message or even less, that someone I reported got punished for every 8 players that I reported. That's actually about right. Infact, you very rarely receive these notifications, it's like 10% of the time if not less iirc, I'd have to find the source for that. _** The majority of the time, you won't receive these notifications. That doesn't mean nothing is being done.**_ > >It's pretty clear that you must report people a lot more often than I do, based on your reaction and will to report me due to my justified anger about being verbally abused. If they're being toxic, I mute and report, if not I don't. It's pretty simple, and it's not a "report everyone that's even mildly rude" thing. I can handle a blow here or there, but when it's consistent, or when people start busting our slurs, that's where I draw the line. > So tell me, how often to you get a message that someone, you reported has been punished? Probably about the same amount as you do. Those messages only appear a very small percentage of the time your report contributes to someones punishment, as I'd mentioned. I haven't actually had one for a while come to think of it. The fact that you can pass the words said here off as "honorable" or "defending ones honor" at this point means literally no amount of typing here is really going to change your view; so I'm not really going to respond past here. Again, I'd encourage you to maybe review everything, review the other responses in this thread, read some example from the player behaviour boards, or the Riot Player Behaviour blogs. It might open your eyes a little.
1. The quote was from the post game lobby and not during the game. When will you get that? 2. I've never said anything homophobic. Where did you read anything like that? 3. What I said was only at the person who agreed to be insulted when he started doing it himself. He was the one who tried to ruin my game experience and that of my teammates. I managed to stop him from doing that and my teammates thanked me for that by honoring me. But the flamer succeeded in the end with Riot's assistance and thanked me by banning me as a thank you for taking care of their job. If someone insults you in a club, you can go to the bouncer and they will throw him out. Riot on the other hand either doesn't do anything or if you are lucky throws him out, or in my case throws yourself out for being upset about him and talking back once. There is absolutely no way you'd ever have to sit in that club and let him insult you for 30 minutes, unable to leave or get him punished. 4. I have literal proof of some of the most toxic people still playing the game, because I saved their op.gg years ago and can see their recent games. So what are you even trying to argue here? I know that some people get banned, who hardly say anything while some of the most toxic players are still playing, because they change servers for example or because Riot pardons them, since the community likes them. See Tyler1 for example. Not only did they pardon him, they actually hired him. If it wasn't so sad, it would be funny. 5. The guy who tried to ruin me and my teammate's game was someone who bought the account, because he apparently got banned in the past. 6. As you can see from the chat log, he said that he didn't care about the bans. So I gave him something to care about and an incentive to stop making new accounts, because Riot's bans clearly didn't do anything.
: >They still abide to a policy which bans people for something that the law deems legal. That's not new. A lot of places do. You can't take alcohol to some venues, but it's legal to drink on private premises, does that mean that they're not allowed to deny people by who bring alcohol with them? >Sure, Riot can ban whoever they want, but that doesn't make it fair and they should change their policy. You can say that, people have already explained WHY this is the policy. You may be "Defending your honor" (you're really not, it just comes down to a "who can hurl the best insult" contest - there's little to no honorable actions in this), but you're actively ruining the experience for those around you by retaliating. The same way that if someone started hurling insults you at a bar, and you DON'T respond, only THEY get removed; whereas if you get involved there's a good chance BOTH will be removed. Again, this concept isn't unique to League. It's applicable to pretty much most communities/places/venues/etc. >If retaliation causes more damage than good, why is it legal? Why is drinking or smoking legal? Just because something is legal doesn't mean it's inherently "good". Again, you insulting someone back doesn't achieve any "good", and is likely to result in a negative response from most people around you. You don't look at two guys shouting in the street and thing "oh that one started it"; you generally thing "Oh god what are they _**both **_ up to". This concept of "defending your honor" is really just nonsense for the aforementioned reasons. >Here is the answer: Justice. What justice? You insulting the other person back doesn't bring any justice to anyone... >But that's something, you've probably not been thinking about for quite some time I'm not sure what you're implying with this. I will respond with two things here to make sure we're on the same wave length: 1. I'm just another player like yourself. I don't work for Riot. I don't have anything to do with how their player behaviour system works. I just know it very well. 2. I've been posting and lurking in the player behaviour boards long since before they were boards (long live the forums). The general response to most of these posts of "but I was defending myself", from other community members, was negative in the way that you further degraded the playing experience for others because you also started breaking the rules. That's pretty much why it doesn't fly as a valid defence, in the eyes of the community (see responses in this thread), or by Riot.
> [{quoted}](name=A Snarky Cyclone,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=lyUAKjnB,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-11T20:50:13.128+0000) > > What justice? You insulting the other person back doesn't bring any justice to anyone... Of course it does. It's the least I could do in that situation to get some justice since Riot doesn't punish people at all unless they use a buzzword that triggers their automated monitoring system, which they admitted to using in the terms of service. I have saved profiles of some of the players that were the most toxic ones in my games and at least 70% of them are still active while I don't know if the others even got banned or just stopped playing. I got maybe 1 message or even less, that someone I reported got punished for every 8 players that I reported. And as I said, I don't report people who are flaming someone back and I don't report people for being critical and constructive. It's pretty clear that you must report people a lot more often than I do, based on your reaction and will to report me due to my justified anger about being verbally abused. So tell me, how often to you get a message that someone, you reported has been punished?
: >They still abide to a policy which bans people for something that the law deems legal. That's not new. A lot of places do. You can't take alcohol to some venues, but it's legal to drink on private premises, does that mean that they're not allowed to deny people by who bring alcohol with them? >Sure, Riot can ban whoever they want, but that doesn't make it fair and they should change their policy. You can say that, people have already explained WHY this is the policy. You may be "Defending your honor" (you're really not, it just comes down to a "who can hurl the best insult" contest - there's little to no honorable actions in this), but you're actively ruining the experience for those around you by retaliating. The same way that if someone started hurling insults you at a bar, and you DON'T respond, only THEY get removed; whereas if you get involved there's a good chance BOTH will be removed. Again, this concept isn't unique to League. It's applicable to pretty much most communities/places/venues/etc. >If retaliation causes more damage than good, why is it legal? Why is drinking or smoking legal? Just because something is legal doesn't mean it's inherently "good". Again, you insulting someone back doesn't achieve any "good", and is likely to result in a negative response from most people around you. You don't look at two guys shouting in the street and thing "oh that one started it"; you generally thing "Oh god what are they _**both **_ up to". This concept of "defending your honor" is really just nonsense for the aforementioned reasons. >Here is the answer: Justice. What justice? You insulting the other person back doesn't bring any justice to anyone... >But that's something, you've probably not been thinking about for quite some time I'm not sure what you're implying with this. I will respond with two things here to make sure we're on the same wave length: 1. I'm just another player like yourself. I don't work for Riot. I don't have anything to do with how their player behaviour system works. I just know it very well. 2. I've been posting and lurking in the player behaviour boards long since before they were boards (long live the forums). The general response to most of these posts of "but I was defending myself", from other community members, was negative in the way that you further degraded the playing experience for others because you also started breaking the rules. That's pretty much why it doesn't fly as a valid defence, in the eyes of the community (see responses in this thread), or by Riot.
I don't know how you can actually believe what you are writing or if you even believe it at all. I already explained that it was a situation where the player flamed everyone and refused to play. During the game I was the only one who told my team to mute him and I didn't even say anything to the flamer, which is what Riot advises players to do by the way. There is a very real chance that Zilean would've ragequit too at some point or given up, if I didn't tell him to keep calm and mute the flamer. Ironically they even said to me in the support ticket where I appealed my ban that I should mute people . Wouldn't suprise me, if they just copy pasted that reply since I did exactly that in the game. The result of that game was that we managed to win 4v5 and my teammates honored me. So explain to me, how I worsened their experience during that game.
Mcgalakar (EUNE)
: They do not. The right to self-defense is used when there is a direct threat to your health or life. If on the street someone would call you an idiot, and other than ignoring him you would start a quarrel with him, the Police would take both of you to custody for disturbing the peace. It is because there is no reason to defend yourself by retaliating in the case of verbal abuse. On this case Riot is even more victim friendly than the outside law system. If you would call a Police telling them 'hey, this random dude in the shop called me an idiot', they would just laugh on you. In Riot his behaviour can lead to a restriction.
Verbally abusing someone is an attack on their honor. By doing so the attacker agrees that the person he assaulted can talk to him that way too. It also lets them taste some of their own medicine and they might not do it a second time when they feel bad after getting insulted too. Also if I go to the police and tell them that a person called me an idiot and other things, I can press charges and he will be fined, if I can prove that he did it. I am even allowed to insult him back and I won't be punished because he agreed to it, when he started doing it to me. If you flame someone back with effort like I did, they will get their punishment immediately and guaranteed and they might not do it again. If you don't, there is no guarantee that he will ever be punished by Riot, if he didn't trigger a buzzword, when he flamed you.
Hansiman (EUW)
: > They will change their policy if enough people complain about it. Well, their policy is already based on community desires. It's the community that let Riot know what behavior standards we want to see, and that "flaming back" is still just flaming. Those that disagree with this represents a very small minority.
No, it's not. The majority wants the tribunal back. The majority wanted Sandbox for years and it literally took them ages to listen. Also why should what Riot's userbase want differ from what the majority of the population wants in terms of behavioural assessments? If anything people in League of Legends are more aggressive due to the nature of the game, so it's likely that they'd have a stronger desire for justice than the rest of the people.
: >My point is that Riot's rules are contradicting the law. They're not. Especially since part of the terms of service you agree too (a contract) when you create the account, includes suspending use of it for any reason they see fit (to paraphrase) - not that they would if it wasn't something that warranted it - which you agree is ok. > If you defend yourself against someone that has been harassing you in a bar and they throw you out, do you think that is fair? Sometimes? Probably not, other times sure. The point is, is that the authorities don't get to decide who gets kicked out of the bar. The bar management do. So again, the law has nothing to do with it in this scenario. The only time the law would get involved is should you decide to take action (legally) against the person who you had the altercation with. The bar itself wouldn't be involved in that at all, and then the law you're quoting from comes into play. >Also if you just keep quiet and report, there is absolutely no guarantee that the flamer will be punished or change his behaviour. He even played another game, when I got banned immediately. There is no guarentee they'll get an instant punishment. The punishment system takes past instances into account. If you were mildly toxic one time in a game, but haven't displayed any toxicity in your past 100 games, it tends to look the other way, as it recognises we're all human. However, should it be a regular pattern, or the behaviour includes things from the zero-tolerance list, then yes, there's a good chance they'll get a punishment. You have no way of 100% knowing if they have or haven't, as the only way you could possibly know is if they told you so themselves. Before we quote the pop up message - that's only present in a small amount of the reports you submit that result in a punishment - it won't appear more often than it will. Following someones game play also isn't accurate, as a chat restriction won't impact their ability to play games, and it's always a possibility that that's what they got. >If you put him down and defend yourself, there is a pretty high chance that he will quit the game. There's no evidence proving this at all. All it does is make the words more "colourful" and drag more people into a toxic mentality, and more people into the argument. Riot even says on their support page the reason that "retaliation" isn't a valid defence is because it does more harm than good, from what they've witnessed on their own. >The reason Riot doesn't want people to defend themselves is because they'd have to put a lot more effort into actually checking reports and looking at who actually was the bad guy. If you believe you've been falsely punished, then you can submit a ticket to player support, where a person will review it for you. However, the system itself produces very little false positives. It's very rare it gives out a punishment that wasn't intended, and in those circumstances, once player support catches them, they get lifted.
They still abide to a policy which bans people for something that the law deems legal. Sure, Riot can ban whoever they want, but that doesn't make it fair and they should change their policy. If retaliation causes more damage than good, why is it legal? Here is the answer: Justice. But that's something, you've probably not been thinking about for quite some time.
: > [{quoted}](name=cinchiller,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=lyUAKjnB,comment-id=00020000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-10T16:43:41.349+0000) > > Dude, read it. > > I said that to him after the game was already done. I never insulted him personally while we played. The chat log clearly proves that. Really, bro. Everyone knows that some key words can trigger the automatic system. A lot of people come here to complain, and bans are never lifted. Now you're telling me you never visited the boards and have seen those kind of thread?
My point is that the system is deeply flawed. Noone should be banned for reacting to verbal abuse. They will change their policy if enough people complain about it.
Hansiman (EUW)
: In the [Terms of Use](https://euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/legal/termsofuse#section5). The ones you agreed to.
Where does it say that you have to take all the flame and are not allowed to talk back regardless of the context? Why should anyone abide those rules, if they miss an important addition that is found in every law, which is to allow people to talk back to defend their honor?
: You agreed to follow their term of use: > 5.1. Can I troll, flame, threaten or harass people while using the Riot Services? (No. If you do, you might get banned.) >While using the Riot Services, you must comply with all laws, rules and regulations in the jurisdiction in which you reside. You must also comply with certain additional rules that govern your use of the Riot Services (the “Code of Conduct”). The Code of Conduct is not meant to be exhaustive, and we reserve the right to modify it at any time, as well as take appropriate disciplinary measures including account termination and deletion to protect the integrity and spirit of the Riot Services, regardless of whether a specific behavior is listed in the policy as inappropriate. In addition to the Code of Conduct, please review the Summoner’s Code for additional guidance on exemplary gameplay behavior.
Where did you get that? That part is not in their terms of service that I agreed to.
: > [{quoted}](name=cinchiller,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=lyUAKjnB,comment-id=000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-10T16:22:10.932+0000) > > No, I don't. I didn't say anything to him during the game. Only after the game was done I defended myself against his repeated insults. Yes, you do. Telling people to suicide, racial/genre/sexual orientation type of discriminations are all things that can make you banned even if you didn't flame all time.
Dude, read it. I said that to him after the game was already done. I never insulted him personally while we played. The chat log clearly proves that.
: I'm familiar with the law. Of which isn't applicable in this scenario. A more applicable scenario would be being removed from a private premises (e.g a restaurant or bar) because you and another person got into a verbal altercation. The management at the restaurant or bar in question reserve the right to who'm they see fit. Should that be one, or both of you, it's completely at their discretion. The specific law you're quoting would not protect you in that circumstance, as it is the owner (Riot) of that private premises (the league servers) that get to choose whether you're allowed to be there or not. Not the authorities.
Are you kidding me? Did you read it? My point is that Riot's rules are contradicting the law. If you defend yourself against someone that has been harassing you in a bar and they throw you out, do you think that is fair? Also if you just keep quiet and report, there is absolutely no guarantee that the flamer will be punished or change his behaviour. He even played another game, when I got banned immediately. If you put him down and defend yourself, there is a pretty high chance that he will quit the game. The reason Riot doesn't want people to defend themselves is because they'd have to put a lot more effort into actually checking reports and looking at who actually was the bad guy.
: And no one care because you agreed to follow LOL rules: > 5.1. Can I troll, flame, threaten or harass people while using the Riot Services? (No. If you do, you might get banned.) >While using the Riot Services, you must comply with all laws, rules and regulations in the jurisdiction in which you reside. You must also comply with certain additional rules that govern your use of the Riot Services (the “Code of Conduct”). The Code of Conduct is not meant to be exhaustive, and we reserve the right to modify it at any time, as well as take appropriate disciplinary measures including account termination and deletion to protect the integrity and spirit of the Riot Services, regardless of whether a specific behavior is listed in the policy as inappropriate. In addition to the Code of Conduct, please review the Summoner’s Code for additional guidance on exemplary gameplay behavior.
Too bad, they don't say anything about the incident where someone actually insults you, and you are just reacting. The law does and you are allowed to insult them back, because they agreed to it when they insulted you first. You can point to Riot rules all you want. It doesn't change the fact that the law is above riot's made up rules and riot's rules are flawed in that regard.
: > [{quoted}](name=cinchiller,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=lyUAKjnB,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-08T18:37:36.132+0000) > > Well it's not acceptable that we just have to accept getting insulted all game long without any consequences for the flamer, but when you write 3 letters after the game, you get an instant ban. There is a reason why it's legal to talk back if someone insults you personally. In fact there are consequences, and the options are this: 1. a player is toxic for more than a single game 2. a player is super toxic in just one game You fall in the second.
No, I don't. I didn't say anything to him during the game. Only after the game was done I defended myself against his repeated insults.
Hansiman (EUW)
: > Should we all live by Riot's terms of service instead of the law now? Just in their game. But being civil will get you further in life than going around telling strangers to commit suicide.
Would you answer my question please?
Hansiman (EUW)
: They're not above the law, but they can still set the standards they want to have in their privately owned game. If you have a house, you can ask any guest you want to leave if they say things you don't like, even though what they say doesn't violate any law. That's your right on your private property.
They punish people for things that are not against the law. Should we all live by Riot's terms of service instead of the law now? Also I said those things after the guy had been verbally abusive. Tell me would it be okay to get imprisoned after punching someone back who has been punching you 20 times?
Hansiman (EUW)
: What does it matter if you said it ingame or not? You told a person to go commit suicide, so there's nothing to debate. This game is not Germany, by the way. Riot is a privately owned company, and can set the standards of what behavior they want to see in their game as they see fit. You agreed to follow Riot's rules, and you broke them. Since you can't keep your promise, Riot doesn't have to keep you here.
And you left out every context why I said it. If someone punches you 20 times and you punch back for once, you'd be the person who gets imprisoned by your absurd morals. Also says a lot about your ethics that you think Riot should be above the law.
: I actually live in Germany :). >If the flamer's chat logs were irrelevant I'd have never said anything to him, so how the hell can you call them irrelevant? Because at no point did that persons logs _**FORCE**_ you to say anything. Again, that was a conscious decision that you made on your own. Otherwise you could get away with anything by simply saying "That person's behaviour MADE me do it!".
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beleidigung_(Deutschland)#Rechtfertigung Read and learn.
Hansiman (EUW)
: You told a person to commit suicide. That's one of the absolute worst things you can tell someone. That's why you got a 14 day ban, because you **didn't** keep calm.
I said nothing to him during the game. I only said that after we had won 4v5 and as a reaction to him flaming again in post game lobby. Reacting verbally to an insult is legal in Germany by the way.
: >You are legally allowed to insult someone back, if they insult you first. You are not allowed to do that. >Riot should follow the law. You agreed to follow Riot rules wich means you can't insult someone because they insulted you first.
In Germany it's legal. Tell me where you are from and I will find the law that states that is legal too where you live.
: %%% = "K'Y'S" word that is super bannable , so u got banned for saying these words its like saying the n word on twitch, u cant
Which doesn't make sense. It's not illegal and especially not illegal when the guy has been insulting me and my team for the entire game.
: > [{quoted}](name=cinchiller,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=lyUAKjnB,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-10-07T21:47:04.879+0000) > > Doesn't mean that it's just, because I was only verbally defending myself after staying calm for the entire game. It's a well known and clear policy of Riot. You can legit defend yourself, but this is a unacceptable behaviour. If Riot would leave people "defend" themself like you did it would be a endless vicious circle. Just accept that fact and don't fall into this behaviours again.
Well it's not acceptable that we just have to accept getting insulted all game long without any consequences for the flamer, but when you write 3 letters after the game, you get an instant ban. There is a reason why it's legal to talk back if someone insults you personally.
: > So explain to me, how I ruined the game that I got banned for when I managed to win 4v5 and the fact you won matters because? sometimes when flamed bad you tilt so much you want your teammate to lose the game, and that's how inters/trollers are born, btw
The only reason we won this game was because I kept calm during the game and encouraged my team to do so aswell. As a reward I got a 14 day suspension. Thanks Riot.
: How about you just follow the rules you agreed to ?
You are legally allowed to insult someone back, if they insult you first. Riot should follow the law.
: No. If you got banned, this means you ruined the game for others. You deserve a punishment for that. You can't buy the right to do this unpunished. Also this system would create a two class society: Those with money would be allowed to be jerks to other people and mistreat them as much as they want, just because they have money. How is that a good idea? Is that really want to you want and do you really think that this is a good idea?
> [{quoted}](name=Humpelstilzche,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=j64hBqXu,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-10-07T16:26:49.144+0000) > > No. If you got banned, this means you ruined the game for others. You deserve a punishment for that. Oh, that's a good one. Until 4 hours ago, I was just as naive. So explain to me, how I ruined the game that I got banned for when I managed to win 4v5 with my team after our Caitlyn decided to flame the entire team and refused to play 4 minutes into the game, because Zilean wasn't good enough for her. I even got honored for that very same game that I got banned for and defended the enemy lux that got flamed for missing a few Q's.
: Partly correct, yes. If you use words to be a jerk, yes, you can get banned. You can also get banned for gameplay violations though.
> If you use words to defend yourself, you get banned. FTFY
: If you encounter it in one third of your games, you do NOT encounter it two thirds. Also in toxic games, it's not 10 players who are toxic, but usually just one or two. So yes, the toxic part is still a minority, you just don't pay attention to the silent non-toxic majority. I am not denying that toxicity is a big problem and that it's affecting a lot of games. But saying that the majority of PLAYERS is toxic is completely inaccurate.
> [{quoted}](name=Humpelstilzche,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=IVlLlRuF,comment-id=00050000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-07T16:47:46.592+0000) > > I am not denying that toxicity is a big problem and that it's affecting a lot of games. But saying that the majority of PLAYERS is toxic is completely inaccurate. What's an even bigger problem is that players who don't say anything back in game get banned for saying something back after they managed to win 4v5 (with honor by teammates) while the troll and flamer is still unpunished. **That's** what I would call a problem.
King Lego (EUNE)
: I think Riot needs to add like a "show rule" icon on the client when it comes to flaming, etc. I mean, i got my own chat ban, and i even deserve it, but since it's mostly due to the meta and champions (vs an Irelia mid for example) that doesn't mean i should go something like this: "the state of the game is made me toxic! Remove my ban riot! It's your fault for making this game unbalanced!" Yeah self defense is great, but sometimes the best defense is being quiet. Can make the flamer even more pissed.
In the real world, you don't have to take shit from anyone. If they insult you, you are legally allowed to insult them back. I understand that Riot doesn't want that in the game, but it makes 0 sense to punish people, if they reacted to it after the game is over.
Endellion (EUW)
: It's like Riot wants to show you that their punishment system for toxicity works.
It doesn't. Like not even remotely. I have at least 5 people from the past few years that I reported for flame who are still playing this game and I just got a 14 day ban, because I insulted someone **after the game** who has not only insulted the entire team for the whole game, but also refused to play after the first 4 minutes. I said nothing in game and told others who talked to him to mute him and we won 4v5. After the game he kept insulting us, so I reacted accordingly and got banned 2 minutes after, while that guy is still not banned. Great system. Glad the real world isn't like that.
: Yeah, I see that almost everyday like "b-b-b-but I was just defending myself" "b-b-b-but he started first !".
So in the real world, I can just walk up to you and insult you, but if you insult me back, you will get punished, while I might not even get any punishment? Because that's what's going on in this game and the best part is that people in this forum actually are okay with it.
: It's not that simple, sadly. Toxic players are, sadly, pretty normal people. They are just unable to handle certain situations. Of course that's no excuse, my point is just that those people are not extremely weird psychopaths or something like that. Well, some of them probably are, but the vast majority are basically average Joes....which makes the problem so much harder to solve.
One solution would be to hire people who look into the context instead of just banning people immediately for certain insults. Even if they said nothing all game long while they got flamed by that person for the entirety of the game.
: To all of you """unfairly banned people for flaming back"
You know that it's actually legal to do so in basically every country, right? It's only Riot not willing to look into the context for whatever reason (little hint: money).
Hansiman (EUW)
: It's a penalty: you're not supposed to enjoy it. If people didn't mind the penalty, it wouldn't have an impact on the behavior of people. Break the rules and you risk your rewards. Part of the rewards is also being a good sportsman.
Yeah, too bad you get banned for insulting someone back **(after you won 4v5)** who has been verbally abusing you and your team for the past 30 minutes when you said **nothing **back to him in game. That system is a joke. No judge would ever punish someone for insulting someone, after he had been insulted by that person for 30 minutes. Let's not pretend that this system was just in any way. I even got honored for that game only to be banned 1 minute after ,while the actual troll and flamer is still not banned.
: I never heard of that I never saw anyone getting punished because of those reports...and I read literally every ban related post on the forums. I suppose it's mostly a hypothetical scenario then.
What? Do you play ranked at all? It's very common, especially on champs that tend to feed lots of kills to the enemy team like Yasuo and Vayne. This occurs in at least 1-5 percent of my games. The reason you don't see any of reports on that is because 1. very few players use this forum. 2. most players don't want to bother making a thread about it. 3. most players rightfully assume that Riot doesn't care and is possibly at the moment not even able to track those friendly bans
: > [{quoted}](name=BlueEyeLightning,realm=EUNE,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=fQXjXZza,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2018-10-07T13:48:15.791+0000) > > All those flamers do have a point in one thing. You don't just stand there taking an insult in the face, you %%%%ing hit back. And then both you _and_ the person initially hurling the insults get suspended. This attitude you preach does not make things better, because to everyone else, they won't see a flamer and a victim - they'll just see two flamers. This is why muting and reporting afterwards is a better option. You might've been flamed, and I won't deny it can't have been a pleasant experience, but you at least have little to no chance of your account getting shut down (assuming you didn't retaliate beforehand), while the flamer had _every_ reason. Your ideology has been preached thousands of times throughout this forum by bitter nobodies wanting to feel martyred in the wake of a punishment, and it's an ideology that neither the majority of the community nor Riot ever intends to follow. Flaming is bad, no matter who started it.
The only reason Riot suspends every person for insults regardless of the context is because they don't want to hire more people to look into the context of reports. Basically every country allows you to insult someone back, if they insulted you. Riot just wants to save money.
: > meybe is true is feeder Doesn't matter. You are not allowed to insult other players, no matter if you think those insults are true or not and it also doesn't matter WHY you insult other people. It's always forbidden, no matter what your reasons are.
Which makes only sense as long as the other person hasn't flamed you first. As soon as the person does, you are legally allowed to insult them back. It's only Riot that doesn't want to regard the context, because they'd have to hire more people to deal with the amount of reports.
: Because the other persons chat logs are irrelevant. They don't make you type what you type, that's a decision that you make yourself. The reason the "self defence" thing doesn't fly is because self-defensive measures are things that _**de-escalate **_ the situation. Insulting them back does the opposite, and only serves to make the issue larger - as now you are flaming, they're flaming, and the mentality starts to spread. The simple thing to do is mute, ignore, report. Engaging in the same behaviour really, again, doesn't help anyone at all, and certainly doesn't offer any defencive properties to it either.
They are not irrelevant. I don't know where you live but in Germany and basically every other country you can't be judged for insulting someone, if the other person has insulted you first. In this case, the person has done that multiple times and what I said actually made us win the game. I only insulted him after the game, so there wasn't even a negative outcome on the game, while he did everything to insult us and destroy the game. If the flamer's chat logs were irrelevant I'd have never said anything to him, so how the hell can you call them irrelevant?
: To clarify this question: Yes, there is a zero-tolerance list of words/acronyms that Riot has that can escalate to a ban straight away. The context for these words/acronyms is also irrelevant. The words/acronyms on that list are racist/homophobic slurs (or any others for that matter), or the lovely K acronym used here, and basically words that society as a whole have deemed unacceptable, and that you really have almost zero reason to use them in the context of League.
Well, almost zero reason seems reasonable. I am however convinced that this was a reason to react like that. Sure it wasn't nice and I always report people who say that, if they are from the enemy team and I don't have their chat logs, but I do so, because I want people to look into it and evaluate the context. Not because I think they should be banned immediately by a bot. Also, do you know if chat in the pre game lobby is being monitored aswell, because if not, that's a huge mistake since it undoubtedly has a much bigger impact on the game than post game chat.
: Telling people to kill themselves is a zero tolerance phrase. Results in a 14day ban skipping both chat restricts or a permaban in case you were already 14day banned. Also theres nothing "hilarious" about telling people to kill themselves.
> [{quoted}](name=CrystalFlame,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=lyUAKjnB,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-10-07T21:24:56.649+0000) > > Also theres nothing "hilarious" about telling people to kill themselves. Never said that. But Riot conveniently left out everything the other player said and if someone insults you and your teammates for 30 minutes, you shouldn't be punished for talking back after the game. Hell, I even defended the enemy Lux when they wanted to report her for missing a few q's as you can see from the chat log.
: That's not the point. The point is that this isn't an issue of legality, but an issue of you agreeing to follow the rules when you set your account up, breaking them, then acting surprised that Riot terminated your account as a result. This changes nothing.
Don't you think that Riot shouldn't have policies that contradict the law?
: Some things I don't understand here. You seem to contradict yourself. So one of your points was "it's not an insult if he isn't there to read it" but you say you got insulted 30 minutes despite claiming that you muted him. According to your logic you might have been insulted early on and after the game but not for the most part during the game. But I guess you are one of the 95% who say "mute" and never do it. The other thing is closely related to that. If I got you right he wasn't even there to read you when you told him to commit suicide. So how exactly is it self defense if your attacker isn't there anymore? From what did you defend yourself? What attack did you stop? It was retaliation. You know it, we know it. On a side note it is not just "Riot's unfair policy" it's the community's unfair policy. Riot enforces what the large majority of the LoL community wants. Also your repetition of "but ingame i behaved fine" sounds to me as if you were waiting with your "self defence" because you thought only ingame chat gets punished. So you waited until after the game to strike back at him. Really sounds like retaliation to me.
I actually had him muted after he started the insults, but I know that he continued, because my Zilean kept replying to him as you can see from the chat log. He also insulted me and the other players directly in the post game lobby, because mute doesn't work after the game anymore for some reason. What it comes down to in the end is that I severely disagree with Riot's policy to ban everyone who uses insults, even if the insults occurred after being abused by that person. It's simply unfair and doesn't go with the laws of most countries.
: Some things I don't understand here. You seem to contradict yourself. So one of your points was "it's not an insult if he isn't there to read it" but you say you got insulted 30 minutes despite claiming that you muted him. According to your logic you might have been insulted early on and after the game but not for the most part during the game. But I guess you are one of the 95% who say "mute" and never do it. The other thing is closely related to that. If I got you right he wasn't even there to read you when you told him to commit suicide. So how exactly is it self defense if your attacker isn't there anymore? From what did you defend yourself? What attack did you stop? It was retaliation. You know it, we know it. On a side note it is not just "Riot's unfair policy" it's the community's unfair policy. Riot enforces what the large majority of the LoL community wants. Also your repetition of "but ingame i behaved fine" sounds to me as if you were waiting with your "self defence" because you thought only ingame chat gets punished. So you waited until after the game to strike back at him. Really sounds like retaliation to me.
I wrote it as self defense and right before I hit enter he left. Riot support can go look at it, if they don't believe me. If it's not Riot's unfair policy then it's the community's unfair policy. And how do you get to the assumption that this was what the community wanted? Did Riot ever do a vote where people where asked that question? My guess is that it's just way easier for Riot to ban people like that, if they don't have to look at the context. Otherwise they would have to hire a lot more people to look into reports. My argument still stands that insulting someone who has been insulting you, shouldn't be punished. That's how it is from a legal standpoint anyway.
: Banned because after we had won 4v5 I insulted our ragequitter who verbally abused the team
The most ridiculous thing about this entire ordeal is that it didn't even take 2 minutes before I got my suspension after I talked back and the person who tried to make us lose and insulted everyone in our team for the entirety of the game is still playing. So am I right when I assume, that certain phrases trigger automatic bans without any look at the context? I mean the fact that only my chat without any context was sent to me in the ban note is already pretty telling.
: Retaliation is not self-defence. Go home.
I am already home, where else should I be at this hour. Are you trying to to imply that I was drunk? Why are you insulting me? It's not retaliation if you insult someone who has been insulting you and the people around you for the past 30 minutes. If someone insults you personally, he agrees to being insulted. That's german law for you.
: > [{quoted}](name=cinchiller,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=lyUAKjnB,comment-id=0003000100000000,timestamp=2018-10-07T22:05:25.369+0000) > > Insulting someone, if there is noone to hear it, won't get you punished anywhere else. Your teammates heard it, though. And didn't take kindly to you saying it. Else you wouldn't have been reported. > There is nothing wrong with defending yourself, if you are being attacked. From a legal standpoint, only if your life is in danger. You retaliated. If your life was honestly in danger because someone insulted you in an online video game, you've got bigger things to worry about than being banned from said online game for behaving like a child. > Stop trying to justify unfair company policies. Oh, _be quiet_. You only say it's unfair because you got banned.
> [{quoted}](name=Cobaltmotari,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=lyUAKjnB,comment-id=00030001000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-07T22:08:29.610+0000) > Oh, _be quiet_. You only say it's unfair because you got banned. And you are wrong once again. Feel free to look at my comment history here. I already said 2 years ago that it's not just. And that applied to things said during the game, while I didn't insulting anyone during the game.
: > [{quoted}](name=Anonymous,realm=,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=lyUAKjnB,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-10-07T20:55:27.603+0000) > > I think it's kinda hilarious that I get a ban when I didn't say anything in this game, but insult the player who has been trolling and verbally harrassing the entire team since 3 minutes into the game. And does the fact that they were harassing the team make _your_ behaviour magically disappear? Nope. > > I didn't afk, didn't even react to any of Caitlyn's insults in game. I even encouraged our zilean to mute the afk and flamer and we even managed to win 4v5 and the result is that I get a ban because I am upset about the afk and flamer after the game... No, the reason you got banned was because you indulged in... > c: just muite Negativity. > c: report cait ragequit Report-calling. > c: dude > c: cait is afk > c: zilean can't lane 1v2 Blaming. > c: just mute him > c: dude > c: mute him > c: then stop talking to him Negativity. Now this is all pretty mild, if a little undesireable. But then... > Post-Game > c: report cait afk > c: and verbal abuse Report-calling. > c: so what? > c: your account will be banned Negativity/threat. > c: once again > c: nice waste of time Blaming/negativity. > c: time to %%% Suicide wish. > c: yes > c: you will someday %%% Suicide wish. > c: such a dumbass Insulting. > c: but I know he must be a total loser > c: and he is the worst player to exist > c: so he kinda deserves it Insulting/blaming. You even said in the title that you were insulting a teammate, regardless of your reasons for doing so. So what ultimately was the point of this thread? If it was to trawl for sympathy by bringing up your motivation, what little sympathy I had for a perspective like that went out the window the moment the post-game chat rolled around and you started telling people to commit suicide. Punishment well and truly deserved.
> [{quoted}](name=Cobaltmotari,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=lyUAKjnB,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-10-07T21:33:29.558+0000) > > And does the fact that they were harassing the team make _your_ behaviour magically disappear? Nope. No, it justifies it and makes it free of punishment by law in the US and the EU, because it is self defense.
: > [{quoted}](name=cinchiller,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=lyUAKjnB,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2018-10-07T21:57:02.101+0000) > > I didn't insult anyone in game. "you will someday %%%" "such a dumbass" "but I know he must be a total loser" "and he is the worst player to exist" "so he kinda deserves it" Who are you trying to fool here? Me or you? And no, the fact that the specific person you were referring to allegedly wasn't there to read it doesn't make a blind bit of difference. An insult is an insult. > Why should insulting someone who has constantly been insulting you be punished? Two wrongs don't make a right. People outside the exchange aren't going to see a flamer and a victim. They'll just see two flamers. Once again. Stop. Making. Excuses.
1. You can see in my chat logs what was said in game and what after the game had already ended. My statement stands: I didn't insult anyone in game. 2. Insulting someone, if there is noone to hear it, won't get you punished anywhere else. 3. There is nothing wrong with defending yourself, if you are being attacked. Stop trying to justify unfair company policies.
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cinchiller

Level 69 (EUW)
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