Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=nigelf 33,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=I2uNVg1X,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2016-11-16T22:45:11.523+0000) > I can carry my team really hard and I main "support" Zyra. >I can carry if I don't play support What a discovery.
I chose support role and I'm able to carry. It doesn't matter if I don't play support attribute champion. Is Leona a support? No, but she's played in support role just like Zyra.
Fauvel (EUW)
: That is literally not the point. I can carry my team really hard on janna or nautilus or even kayle support. But I can also carry much harder on nautilus or kayle jungle. I am a support main, not a jungle main. This is my point.
My point is that I can't carry as hard in solo lanes as I can carry on support Zyra.
Fauvel (EUW)
: Supports cannot afford to be the BEST player.
I can carry my team really hard and I main "support" Zyra.
: support has a name.. its called autofill
Autofill shouldn't happen that often.
ChiTenshi (EUW)
: Support is a highly recognised role name in most MOBA's. Changing it will just cause confusion. PS: If you're going to change the name, at least make it sound decent so people aren't discouraged from the role.
Bot babysitter sounds like a good name. It means that you are in charge of the lane. Maybe Bot king or something else would be fine too.
: But they don't want to force lanes upon roles,they want people to shift and play off meta. That's why they avoid the term "adc" or "marksman" on bot lane. Actually, with support role picked, you CAN go and support top if you want(although everyone will hate you for it).
Riot would ban me guaranteed if I just went to support top lane...
Rioter Comments
: Short overview of issues with support role
Only duty for support role is that you help your adc farm in lane. Rest is freely chosen. I'm an inventor myself, I don't build sightstone on Zyra, and I got to challenger with my optimal playstyle. I don't even help my team, but I focus on winning the game instead. I fulfilled my duty as support in laning phase.
: My placement after recent matchmaking fix...
I got placed in silver 5 before this fix, I got placed in platinum 1 after the fix. I was challenger last season. I'm pretty fucking sure it's working correctly right now. It's supposed to place you way lower, no matter how well your placements go.
Allosen (EUW)
: Ban him
I ban him every single game right now, but that means that it's not easy to practice vs him either.
Rioter Comments
: We posted yesterday that we are looking to address the ranked missmatch some players are facing. Additionally flex is not solo queue so be aware your solo queue ranked mmr is not the same as flex. Personally I'm really enjoying the challenge of these higher ranked players in my games. It's a great learning experience and I am really being put to the test even if I do get my butt kicked from time to time.
I was challenger last season... now im in silver 5. This is unbelievable can you fix it? I went 5-5 in placements... I can't imagine if I lost one more game... I would be freaking bronze.
emthy (EUNE)
: I AM SICK OF THIS FLEX
RIOT GAMES I WAS CHALLENGER AND THIS PRESEASON IM FREAKING SILVER V... FIX THE SYSTEM
Fillio (EUNE)
: 7 hours until the maintenance and ranked are disabled?
We got scammed. I don't know why riot lies to human players.
Rioter Comments
: The support is supposed to help the whole team... hell that's why when you look at the new champ select map where it shows the lanes it doesn't show support in the bot lane, nor why the image for supports when selecting the role is the support icon not a picture of the bot lane like it is with every other lane. Hell just go watch some pro play... while the meta has shifted to shoving lanes which is why it's not as prevalent during worlds you can see that supports don't spend that much time in lane... they go around with their jungler, gank lanes, mess with the enemy jungler, ward around the map. In one of riot's clairvoyance posts they showed heat maps for supports (a map which shows where a champion frequently visits) and besides for a handful of supports like soraka who are always with a buddy a lot of the supports, especially playmakers like thresh or leona, are all over the map. > Zyra, Blitzcrank and Leona are definitely not team supports, but they are supporting the adc in laning phase. You might have chosen the 3 worst supports to make that case with... these are champions who would love to roam. Think about it these 3 have very limited peel so when there isn't kill pressure they aren't surviving much by being with their carry... but if they joined their jungler and ganked a lane or even invaded the jungle they would be so much more useful than being sat bot lane watching their carries farm. When ever a support can leave their adc alone in the lane to farm they should... they have a lot of pick potential and most of them are very powerful when ganking someone so they should output this pressure in the map, even if they don't do anything them being missing creates pressure as the enemy mid laner will be more cautious to start a fight as you might be waiting to gank. > The team will not collapse even without anyone playing support, it can actually work even better. If that was the case then why is it that the meta has had a support since worlds at S1... with literally no inclination of changing. If it could work better then we would see it but in 6 seasons we haven't seen any pro games deviate from this meta... because a support is vital to a team's success. They supply the sustain in sieges, they supply the peel in fights, they bring pick potential, they are able to buy important team oriented items as they aren't reliant on items to scale, and most importantly they supply a ton of the teams wards... up to 50% of them (or 100% in low elo solo Q) because they get to buy sightstone which also means they are free to switch to sweeper sooner, the vision game literally pivots of the support role. So if anyone is misunderstanding the support role it's you... a support should be where they are needed by there team, if the carry needs protection you stay with the carry but if your time can be better served roaming to do literally anything then you should do that.
No freaking way that support are roaming a lot. I never see that when I play support. Enemy support is pressured heavily under tower most of the time. Supporters are almost always just babysitting the adc in lane, so I guess babysitter would be the optimal name choice for support. I haven't seen a single support roam in pro play before 6 min either.
: Actually they call him ADC, which is neither in the Role selection, nor in the Champion description. Illuminati much?
Well it must be a mistake. Riot started calling ADC role marksman since season 5 if I remember right. That's because there was a misunderstanding with Zed being able to be AD carry too, but not being in adc role. There is no way Zed can be a marksman, though. And I think that if you look for the roles in your champion page in league of legends client, it should show marksman for the champions that Bang plays.
: No, I highly disagree with you, and I find the points you try to make dumb and nitpicky :D
This time you didn't even defend your points. Do you honestly believe that Leona and Blitzcrank support their teams? No, they are supporting their ad carry during the lane phase to help them farm and get kills. Leona and Blitzcrank are TANKS, not support champions. The role name is only from the laning phase. Just tell me which part you didn't understand so I can try to explain it better.
: Remember that riot didn't make most of the terms which we use... things like support was made by the community when the role came into existence, all riot did was formally acknowledge the term as the generally accepted one which is why they use it. And bot assist is even worse as that implies that supports should only stay bot lane but a large portion of most supports involves roaming around warding or helping other lanes (which is why supports tend to fall behind in levels, because they spend more time than any other roles doing an activity which results in no exp). And support doesn't make them feel weak... in fact it's quite the opposite. For example in architecture supports are the things which hold the entire building together, without the supports the building collapses. In league supports play the same role, they are behind the scenes keeping the team from collapsing using wards or utility. So the term support is very accurate to what they do.
The fact that it's called just support is really bad, because people think that the role is supposed to help the whole team. I can see from your comment that you are one of those people. The team will not collapse even without anyone playing support, it can actually work even better. Team is definitely not a good analogy for a building. If it was named to be bot assistant or whatever, I don't even know what name would be the most fitting, there would be no misunderstandings like yours. Zyra, Blitzcrank and Leona are definitely not team supports, but they are supporting the adc in laning phase. That's what the term is about.
: A support isnt necessarily about Heals or Shields. Leona or Blitzcrank have neither of both for their teammates and still are played way more often as Support than f.e. Lulu or Karma on mid lane.
They aren't even supports. They are tanks who just got accepted in the role, just like Zyra is a mage. The role name is wrong, and I tried to point out why. It seems like you finally agree with me.
: I get you point about the inconsistency of the names. Sure, top laners don't have to stay top but just start there etc. > I sacrifice damage for wards and health, which are both irrelevant. You bought Eye of the watchers on all of your recent Sona builds...why?
It's the optimal build for Sona. There are champions in support role, for whom sightstone is not part of the optimal build, such as Zyra. They are played as support despite that fact, because they have weaknesses that prevent them from being played in solo lanes. If sightstone is not part of optimal build for a "support" champion, it shouldn't be bannable.
: So soon we will call Wolf SKT's "Bot 2" or "Bot assist"? Look Wolf, we know you like to Support your entire team, go with Bengi to ward enemy jungle, but you have to assist Bot and stay there.
Are you kidding me? They don't call Bang "Bot" even though he is playing marksman. Wolf will be called support just like Bang is called marksman, because it's their CHAMPION's attribute. But before games, it would be nice if it showed that Bang is playing bot and Wolf is playing bot assistant.
: Making it to challenger doesnt mean you know every lane and how to correctly play it
So you wouldn't ping your lane to be missing if you see that enemy support isn't there? I think the meta is that support is bottom, and the name doesn't matter. I haven't seen anyone complain when I pick Zyra, even though my role is support and Zyra has no supportive abilities.
: So I assume worlds player must do something wrong when they roam on the map as Support.
Yeah, I guess worlds players are playing off meta when their bot lane lane swaps to top. Oh wait, it doesn't matter at all what people do in worlds because they don't have a role selection.
: If you don't roam early as support when your ADC is safe (and not a shoe) you lose out on precious map pressure and tilt momentum. You dont have to be 24/7 up the enemy mid laners ass. But if he thinks that you are then you are doing it right. Supports are supposed to support the entire team. Even early.
I don't think that you know how to win the game if you think that support is supposed to roam early. I had nearly 1000 games played in season 6, challenger ranking on 2 accounts, and I don't see supports roaming in early game. They ALWAYS go bot lane, and I never have to ping missing or whatever lvl 1. If you see that enemy support is missing from bot lane, do you ping missing or do you think he is playing correctly? I would definitely ping missing, because support is SUPPOSED TO BE IN BOTTOM with marksman, who is playing bot role.
: >It's not my jerb [sic] to support the whole team. Err...yes, it is actually. Sure, some supps can have massive lategame on their own, but the primary role that is assigned to supports is to provide utility for the team in all phases of the game.
Well whatever, it may be my jerb to support the whole team. But it doesn't make sense that the role was named this way. Just like marksman is named bot, something similiar should be for support champions. And I don't feel like the "support" should be in the role name, because Zyra can be played in "support" role, and she definitely is not a "support". She can't heal or buff your team at all. By riot's logic, playing Zyra as "support" should be bannable because she is not a support, but she was played multiple times in worlds.
TheLynxMan (EUNE)
: I clearly see that you do not understand being a support. This game is not static, like you cannot be on bot only. you vcan go wherever you want. I play unusal champs, as a support, like darius aatrox, sion. Thoose CAN ffarm quite well. But this game is not aboutfarm. it is based on objectives. and you goal is to get them, and at a good value. Support USUALLY have a crap ton of cc OR defense mechanisms, to save the others or make plays, initiate or bait or so. You can play support on any champ. They do not farm, but generate gold and get a lot of money from assists so supports usually buy sightstone, bc it pays for itself. it is absolute value. For a janna, she is mobile and can ward the whole map. for a tanky support, it is HP. For a mage support, it is the key of survival. Mage supports are usually based for a simple thing -> Healing -> Soraka, Auras -> Sona or Lockdown -> Annie. Thoose mage supports usually not glasscanons, but more lik a fighter mage. For exaple like a Swain. You are only weak when you want to.
Of course support champions can farm sometimes, but most of the time support champions are only able to be played as support. The inability to farm usually gives them strengths that can only be seen when the champions are played as support. It would be unideal to have only 2 champions in the team that can waveclear, because there are 3 lanes in the game. The game IS about farm, because without 3 lanes to farm, your team will crumble in team fights later on without gold/experience resources. Team without 3 champions able to waveclear is surely less likely to win than team with 3. Unless one of the champions can farm 2 lanes at once somehow, which I haven't seen yet. If support is able to waveclear fast by themselves, that's a waste of abilities. Usually the ability to clear fast is balanced by not giving the champion much utility. Support is really bad on most champions, because if the champion can waveclear as support, it would be overpowered in other lanes too.
: Riot didnt intent this at all. Players found out this to be efficient and Riot adjusted the game according to this. Reasons: -Your ADC is in theory your main source of damage for the game, especially lategame -An ADC is relatively weak early because he needs gold, items and XP to become stronger -If faced by a Mage or Fighter, an ADC could easily die 1v1 and this would snowball -So you put a Support champ at his side that doesnt farm but uses his abilities to help his ADC survive until he got the damage -To neutralize this lane, enemy team puts an ADC and a Support in the same lane -it is on Botlane, because this is close to the Dragon Pit which is the first neutral objective teams will contest with large player numbers, so having your 2 player lane close to that is better than having only one -funnily, items that passively give Support gold were introduced AFTER this meta has established This has a lot to do with how Meta developed during League history. Just watch some Worlds Teams Support play. You will always see the Support roam a lot too.
The items that passively gave support existed back in my days... In season 1. Back then you could buy 3 gold generating items in pretty much any lane (Kage's lucky pick, heart of gold, philosopher's stone), and it was actually meta to play morgana mid with 3 gold generating items and just spam farm. Supports ALWAYS bought heart of gold. I know enough about league's history, and after the meta was defined in season 1 to Bot ADC and Bot support, everyone knew that marksman and support were bot. This role discrimination separated them from each other. They MUST be together again just like before.
: That is actually easy. When the meta originally was created (season 1,2) and redefined in season 3. The support meta was really roaming focussed. It's I believe until season 5 where the duo lane meta was formed again.
So do you actually think it would be legit meta gameplay if your support decided that he's not going to play in bottom lane with Bot (marksman)? That's exactly the problem with support in my opinion. It's not well defined at all. I haven't ever seen any "support" role player not play in bot lane early game. edit: Well I can't say ever, but it was pretty heartbreaking when I saw someone try to make level 1 roams around the map as Blitzcrank support and it wasn't fun for either side. Marksman got zoned 1v2 while solo lanes couldn't handle the pressure well either.
: But..but...you are not bot assist. You just happen to start there and support the ADC until they are big and bad enough to survive without you. Roaming mid or into the jungle to ward is an essential part of the role and is done for the benefit of the whole team. I like the name 'support', it is an accurate representation of the role. So...you are not buying sightstone? Care to explain why you think that this is a bad idea if you are playing support?? What items are you 'sacrificing' by buying an item that not only gives you health but also allows your team to have better vision on the map? If you want to go full AP and kill stuff, play mid or top.
So is top laner called top for no reason then? He obviously doesn't stay in top lane for long. In my games, if bot lane turret gets taken down, "top laner" is definitely not in top lane after that, because he has to swap lanes to bottom. The role names are ONLY for early game, so your team can see in champion select where you are going. Obviously it would be problematic if there were two bot laners, because you wouldn't know if someone wants to play marksman or support champion. So they had to name them as Bot and Bot assist, but they messed up somehow. Of course I don't buy sightstone, I got to challenger on 2 accounts with my innovative style of gameplay. http://euw.op.gg/summoner/userName=nigelf%2033 and http://euw.op.gg/summoner/userName=nigelf . I sacrifice damage for wards and health, which are both irrelevant. Damage is ALWAYS needed. I can't go mid and top, because as I said before, supports are generally champions that can't farm.
: > theres enough supports that can put out decent map pressure early. AKA supports DO roam early and help their entire team, going top and tipping the scale or getting a cheeky 3 man mid is not rare mate. [Additional rant about ADCs 1v2ing while support roams and comparison to children sticking forks into power outlets]
Support role is NOT "supposed to" roam early. It would be like calling mid lane ... all-laner or whatever, just because most of the mid laners can do that.
: Even or especially in laning phase you can and should make roams on the map to help ALL of your team. I often encounter Supports roaming up even to Top lane and making successful plays there that help their team.
And why on earth is support placed in bot lane on the map in champion select if he is supposed to roam? Riot didn't intend that to happen for sure, and the support name was just left there for no reason. Even mid lane can roam if he wants to, but he is still mid even if he comes to help bottom. If support stays as support, then "bot" should be marksman to make this suffering equal between the bot lane players.
: You are supposed to help the entire team as a support, it is only early game that you are a bot slave and that only on some supports theres enough supports that can put out decent map pressure early.
Every other role is named for early game, even marksman's role bot is named for early game, even though any rational human plays marksman in bot role. Just like all "support" role players play support champions. So please wrongly named "support" to bot assist. What is your argument for not doing that if even role with no champion role diversity like marksman is named bot?
: The support role in general you are expected to help everyone, you are expected to buy a sightstone and ward and you are expected to support. Bot assist assumes you are assigned to the adc. Top is not assigned to top, their job is to attack/defend top and not sit there all game because they are top Same for mid Same for bot Jungle is expected to fight over the jungle and during their pathing may be able to help the rest of the team. For every role you are expected to support every other person on the team in every other lane, the position names are purely where you will attack and defend at the start.
Yes exactly as you said, even if marksman is named bot, he doesn't just stay in bot all game long. So WHY is marksman named bot and support is named support? THERE IS NO LOGIC. It's not my jerb to support the wole team. My jerb is to support the role "bot" during laning phase.
: However, you are more efficient if you roam to help the rest of the team at the right time (aka your ADC is safe), especially after laning phase.
Yeah but obviously ALL role should be named for laning phase. Mid jungle top... They aren't mage assassin and tank... Assassin -> roamer is like support -> roamer. So why is no lane named as assassin? That's right, it makes no sense to name role after the champion's role.
: I think "Bot assist" is a more demeaning title than Support and actually yes, Support is MEANT to support the ENTIRE team. It's just that he is more efficient when his "home lane" is on bot.
No way I'm supporting these teams... Only adc is worthy of supporting because my champion is bad at farming. "Supports" are generally bad at farming themselves, but bot assist role makes them glorious, because they do NOT have to farm on their own.
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nigelf 33

Level 30 (EUW)
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