: Green Smite
You’ve already got 2 wards from your trinket... you really don’t need trackers for more
: Riot should create more less team depended supports
Supports are team dependant because they lack gold, so they need a bit of help. But that doesn’t mean you can’t carry with them. Rakan for instance is a great one for carrying... yeah you need spring boards for dashing but I’ve never had an issue, and as an engage champion you can single handedly win games with a good engage. Protection supports are a bit harder but a good one can still carry. Supports are harder to carry with but you can still do so with any of them... it mostly just involves dragging your team to victory kicking and screaming
xZabaksx (EUW)
: What skin would you like to be made for your main?
Princess sion... it’s an old concept that emerged when he got reworked (namely cause of the tassel on sion’s head), it’s basically sion in a dress
Wits End (EUNE)
: About Aatrox rework
Firstly the goal of the rework was to remove the old kit not add a new one, having both kits in the game completely defeats to entire point of the rework. Secondly Old Aatrox was extremely unhealthy, new aatrox is much healthier therefore a revert is pointless Thirdly the revive isn’t the only thing that got kept... you’d actually be surprised we are only in spirit missing half of the W and the E. Q3 is his old Q without the dash which was moved to the E, his current passive is very similar to blood thirst with even the same animation, he retains the drain tank playstyle, and his ult is pretty much the same just modified for a caster playstyle. The thing about Old Aatrox was that what made him aatrox also made him toxic, his W... the vast majority of his issues stemmed from that one ability, so it had to be removed. Once you ditch the W no matter what you do your not gonna have aatrox anymore, and besides the E which nobody really cared for everything else was kept. Riot messed up by removing the revive, but reverting his rework is a step back Riot can’t afford to do, not only would it return a toxic champion who’d just need another rework but it opens up a massive can of worms surrounding reverts, if aatrox got one everyone else can get one and we’d never hear the end of it.
: > [{quoted}](name=swampert919,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=fA157OhZ,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-07-22T17:10:24.390+0000) > > Why should Camille be rewarded for missing an ability... the attack speed is a reward for landing the skill shot she shouldn’t get it if she gets outplayed. > > Also don’t forget you can flash as well to extend the range of the E and reposition where it ends... if someone is gonna flash to dodge it you can predict the flash and flash to the same place to land it... so it’s not like you are powerless. But if they flash away from u, u cant extent the range enough, to hit them. u know idc, i think its a design flaw that u need 2 hit 1 spell then u can fight someone, and if u miss it u just die, thats %%%%%%ed
Everyone needs to hit a spell to fight... it’s a bad design that you can miss stuff and still be a threat
: Yes because it only proc on single target spells. I already mentioned all of that in my comment above ;) It have all the details
Yeah I read your comment after writing that one, it’s below for me so I didn’t notice it till later
Infernape (EUW)
: Muramana doesn't proc on her Q. Riot coded it as AoE.
As I answered above I did make a mistake but she still does get more procs than the average champion so still makes great use out of it
: The Q missiles don't proc muramana. It was removed while Kai'sa was still in PBE
Ok I may have misheard then or something... so I did a bit of digging > Once it transforms into muramana, it also becomes a late game monster. At just level 12 with full Mana each proc of the muramana passive at 100% Mana will deal ~130 damage. This applies to isolated Qs, your W, your autos, and your passive proc. Your guinsoos rageblade will also apply it twice on your autos. https://aminoapps.com/c/league-of-legends/page/blog/why-manamune-kaisa-is-suddenly-so-popular/G0Un_uzRDMYGelZX6R4vaPDVKDdv2Z Looks like it only applies once or something like that per isolated Q, but applies on passive detonation and also interacts with guinsoos rageblade which still makes the passive great on her. Regardless this is a build pro players build and validate, so it’s gotta have advantages given it’s their job to squeeze everything they can out of their builds.
: Kaisa "new" build
Her Q evolution is a huge damage spike, you won’t always be fighting in lane and part of the skill of kaisa is hitting Q without minion interference.~~ Manamuna also procs on each of your Q bolts meaning you’ve got very high burst damage when you transform it.~~ E transform is good but it’s protection not damage, getting that early isn’t that big of a powerspike while the Q transformation is a damage spike. So it’s getting an earlier damage spike for less gold (manamune and pickaxe vs stormrader and pickaxe) and a further damage spike later on into your build. EDIT: made a mistake but the rest is valid as is what I replied to Doom Emisary
: Why do people take TP on bot its wrong
I mean you should play differently based on what summoner your ally has... if he has tp don’t play like he has heal still. And it’s done in high elo to get good back timings, which is super important in the bot lane, low elo that matters a lot less but high elo dictates low elo. Ez has done it for longer cause he wants an early tear so it lets him get that ASAP without hurting his lane And it’s done with yuumi cause yuumi can tag along with your teleport giving both of you a teleport, and she should have swapped flash for another combat summoner so can have her own heal. It makes sense but requires both adc and support to play accordingly, you can guarentee that at low elo
: "go to CoD if you want 1v1s" I might go, becaues people in this game are all stupid and %%%%%%ed, not watching the map, not working for ganks, die solo or just go into enemy jungle "for fun" and die there. I just seen how Blitzkrank made Nasus drown in tears, while Nasus received tonns of help. People just NEVER gank Vayne top, so any "advice" to ask jungler for gank is useless. People are %%%%%%ed to the point they cannot gank. Because Riot games made jungle space into that. They wanted jungling to be useless, to dilute players from it.
Jungle is one of the most important roles, always has and always will... the ability to affect the outcome of all 3 lanes is massive. And if your jungler doesnt punish the vayne top then that’s got nothing to do with vayne does it... it’s a problem you where likely to have regardless of who your against. So again if you don’t like this game being team based don’t play it, 1 person shouldn’t win if the other 4 on their team don’t do well that’s just unfair to the 4 players on the enemy team who did do well
: What's your favorite not so supportive support?
{{champion:50}} used to run it back when his rework got released... you’ve got good poke, good follow up on ganks, a pseudo pull with your E and passive, and if you take klepto like I used to you still become a teamfight threat.
: Is Mordekaiser is unbelievably broken or is it just me?
I mean if you feed anyone enough they can 1v3. And anyone can 1v3 if you ignore counter play. For example you thought you had him then he shielded, try backloading your burst (so using burst as he gets low) or cc locking him towards the end. He has to actvate his shield and he’s gonna wait until late into the fight to bait you in, you can punish that
: Can tanks be viable again.
The tank meta wasn’t a tank meta anyway. We’ve had 3 times where a meta has been considered a tank meta. The first was the cinderhulk meta where bruisers like trundle went top with cinderhulk The second was when tank ekko and fizz where an issue The third was the adc meta where top was tank centric cause tanks complimented adcs the best. Each time tanks wherent even strong, first one bruisers where doing their job better, second one assasins where doing their job better, third one tanks where even struggling it was just how adc centric the game was. So no the tank meta won’t come back, cause we’ve never actually had a proper tank meta... just bruisers being an issue and tanks getting the blame. ___ As for what needs to be done I’ve said this before and will say it again... we need anti tank reworked to have valid counter play... conquerer killed top lane tanks early, black cleaver kills them in the mid game, and last whisper kills them late game... they just aren’t strong cause they can’t tank anymore. Reworking anti tank to be windowed actives will supply skilful play... say last whisper “for 5 seconds attacks ignore 50% armour” on a 60 second cooldown. Tanks can control engages and disengages as well as cc lock so they can play around those 5 seconds to prevent themselves fro, dying, while the adc can activate it at the perfect moment to shred a tank if they misplay. That way tanks can be skilful abd them being unkillable comes down to skill, not who’s spent gold to kill them or not. I don’t think individual tanks need buffs, they are solid honestly... they just need fairer counter play.
Yraco (EUW)
: They already have added and changed runes. Nimbus cloak used to be a rune that reduced ult cooldown, the domination vision runes used to work differently, ultimate hunter didn't exist, conqueror didn't exist, conqueror used to work differently, bone plating didn't exist, shield bash didn't exist. They just do what they think is best for balance when it comes to adding, changing and replacing runes. No matter how many runes there are, there will always be an optimal rune in every situation and every champion; there could be 1000 runes in every tier and there would still be a certain combination that is objectively the best.
When they added conquerer and hail of blade they said they plan to add other keystone runes as well (so that each tree had equal amount of options)... that’s what OP are referring to.
: CC? LOL, that is not the problem. Even if they had Elise, Vayne just picks Cleanse and buys Mercurial. Result would be the same. They don't gank because they know that Vayne already has lane priority. With lane priority Vayne 100% knows they come to gank (75 gold) and just rolls back to tower and there is no way to stop Vayne from running away. Glacial and Fleet footwork were both nerfed together with CC in whole game, there is no way to CC Vayne, if you think like that. PS. "you land one cc and she dies instantly", as I already answered Vayne players have lane priority 100%, and there is no way to come to them unnoticed. Besides, who the hell needs a jungler, top is 1v1 lane and both players should be equally able to play it. Why should I depend from some idiot guy in jungle which may come, or may not come. Also, any champions who could possibly do something against Vayne were all nerfed. So Riot Games probably tells us that they think ADC should be best at early game AND best at midgame AND best at late game AND best 1v1 champions. Nicely done, Rito.
> CC? LOL, that is not the problem. Even if they had Elise, Vayne just picks Cleanse and buys Mercurial. Result would be the same. Nobody goes cleanse top lane it’s just not worth it. Even if you did you just gank, get the cleanse out, then gank again while it’s down, easy kill. QSS costs 1300 gold, you should have ganked her at least once by then > They don't gank because they know that Vayne already has lane priority. With lane priority Vayne 100% knows they come to gank (75 gold) and just rolls back to tower and there is no way to stop Vayne from running away. Which is why you learn gank timing and how to set up a gank, she’s pushed up and overextended even with a ward she won’t get away far enough, all you need to do is engage her as your jungler gets to the river entrance, your already on top of her so she’s already using condemn to disengage, and if she just runs your free hitting and your jungler can still land cc on her meaning easy gank. Your jungler can also clear vision then come back it’s not that hard. > Glacial and Fleet footwork were both nerfed together with CC in whole game, there is no way to CC Vayne, if you think like that. Nobody used glacial top lane you need slowing items that are almost exclusive to mages. Fleet nerfs is a nerf to vayne not you. And cc wasn’t nerfed at all. > Besides, who the hell needs a jungler, top is 1v1 lane and both players should be equally able to play it. Why should I depend from some idiot guy in jungle which may come, or may not come. It’s a 5v5 game not a 1v1... even top lane your lane revolves around junglers as well. Actually it revolves around every lane, you should be looking for opportunities to roam yourself, and be careful of ganks from mid, jungle and even support, as well as setting up for your own ganks. If you don’t want to depend on people don’t play league, go to CoD if you want 1v1s > Also, any champions who could possibly do something against Vayne were all nerfed. So Riot Games probably tells us that they think ADC should be best at early game AND best at midgame AND best at late game AND best 1v1 champions. Nicely done, Rito. And vayne was nerfed as well... not to mention every top laner can do something against vayne... there’s a reason she’s never been a meta pick it’s a gimmick relying on people not understanding the matchup like you.
: Is it bad not to give red buff to adc?
Ultimately it’s the jungler’s buff and it’s their choice whether you get it or not... it’s best to ask if you can take it instead of just taking it, lets the jungler decide and usually he will be happy to give it to you.
dYviNNe (EUNE)
: Comet Ashe
Ashe is a champion where you don’t really need to scale your damage... she gets a lot of value out of her utility so she can afford a build like this (she also tends to build ER and triforce with these sorts of runes to get even more utility). Her early game is also her weakest point, and her late game is still pretty good even without a scaling rune... so she can use comet to get an ok to good early game and still get a decent late game as well.
: I don't have my own personal jungler. But anyway ganks are unlikely. Vayne runs faster then any jungler with her passive bonus. Look how Vayne top in proplay was never ganked because of that. Either delete passive bonus, or include it into her ultimate, or make her slow down when she runs away. Even in proplay they don't know how to punish Vayne top, if they have already picked non-dive setup. You can only dive her. It says a lot. A champion which cannot be countered except with 3-man dive. PS. One more problem. Vayne's early is still stronger then all melee toplaners in this game.
In pro play vayne top has only been picked twice as a counter pick to morde... they don’t gank that because morde has no way of assisting in the gank. Not to mention one of these games karthus was morde’s jungler and the other was Olaf... so there was no hard cc in that lane. In a normal game vayne will be always overextended due to how minion aggro works (unless you are actively pushing your minions will always die first as they will attempt to hit her not the minions) this means that without any real means of escape she is pushed up in a long lane. She might have high movement speed but the vast majority of jungler have cc, you land one cc and she dies instantly. Her Q isn’t that low cooldown early game it’s really easy to set up on her. She should never need to be dove because you shouldn’t be pushing her under tower, you are misplaying if you attempt to do that.
: Camille e needs a change again O.o
Why should Camille be rewarded for missing an ability... the attack speed is a reward for landing the skill shot she shouldn’t get it if she gets outplayed. Also don’t forget you can flash as well to extend the range of the E and reposition where it ends... if someone is gonna flash to dodge it you can predict the flash and flash to the same place to land it... so it’s not like you are powerless.
: Vayne top vs Tahm Kench top: Riot when will you stop this madness on top lane?
She’s not that bad tbh... her early game isn’t that good, she pretty much auto pushes due to how minion aggro works, she can’t survive ganks on her own, if she gets someone on top of her she dies, if she falls behind she is a free kill, and once you get ninja tabs it ain’t hard surviving against her. Just call your jungler in for a gank and you’ve got an easy free kill... and later on you’ve got a front line they’ve got another adc you will roll over them in fights
DBTLilly (EUW)
: Aeah it's a positive feedback loop. As a mid main, who loves to oneshot the backline, Morde is a gamekiller for me. He beats me in a 1v1, and is tankier. I usually have to use my charm to survive, which means I'm losing dmg for the backline. And if my team isn't winning the fight, then I die as soon as the ult is over. His ultimate is just ant-fun to Midlaners and Marksmen, which is why he gets such a huge banrate. The ability to take someone out of the fight uncontested is so strong, that his damage HAS to be low, or you just end up with a faceroll champion nobody wants to play against. I personally don't think it's ok for a morde to outdamage an Ahri when they have the same amount of items, especially considering he has the most gamechanging ultimate on the rift. His killzone is also too small for mobile champions to outplay him. I personally think he's one of those "Can't be balanced with numbers" champions, akin to old Poppy. His ult is just too much of a threat for people to let him through champion select.
> He beats me in a 1v1, and is tankier. I usually have to use my charm to survive, which means I'm losing dmg for the backline. And if my team isn't winning the fight, then I die as soon as the ult is over. That can be said about every bruiser... mages struggle with tanky champions on principle and morde is a juggernaut and therefore is tanky and has damage... so yes you shouldn’t be able to beat him he is countering you. But you are ranged and have insane mobility so he shouldn’t be able to kill you without ult... it’s a stale mate, you can’t kill him but he can’t kill you. > His ultimate is just ant-fun to Midlaners and Marksmen, which is why he gets such a huge banrate. The ability to take someone out of the fight uncontested is so strong, that his damage HAS to be low, or you just end up with a faceroll champion nobody wants to play against. QSS... before you say the obvious if the only threat coming from a champion is that ult and there’s an item that can completely remove it then it’s worth buying regardless of the stats. And marksmen have no excuse. Hourglass also has a cool interaction... if you go untargetable during the cast time of the ult it goes on cooldown without doing anything (gotta time it right though, too early and it doesn’t go on cooldown), an hourglass can completely nullify the ult. You can also do the same with vision, dashing into a bush or over a wall during the ult cast time will stop the ult with a full cooldown assuming it ain’t warded... Banshee veil is another way to stop it... he shouldn’t be hitting you with abilities as an ahri so he is incapable of ulting you without help He also relies on his team being able to win a 4v4, yes he might be able to ult you but if your team wins the 4v4 then when he comes out he will die... try roaming more than usual to get your team ahead... that alone makes him unable to safely ult. If he’s ulting an adc and not fed that’s actually not that bad... adcs shoild target the closest threat at all times to prevent overextending... that was gonna be morde regardless. So their dps doesn’t change and they actually get protected from assasins or other backline threats. ___ Like I said there’s plenty of counter play, people just haven’t had the chance to learn it...
: rito should change tahm kench exactly what they did in pyke. i am a pyke main but i am happy that none will abuse him in mid/top/jungle anymore! also some chamions like lulu ' bard etc requires this changes too!
That’s because pyke wasn’t designed to be a solo laner... tahm was actually meant to be a top laner until very late into his development that’s why he feels like a juggernaut because a lot of his kit was designed for a top lane juggernaut... so it does make sense for him to be kept viable in top lane cause he was meant to be there. And lulu in solo lanes hasn’t been done for years Riot already cracked down on that... and bard is pretty much never used outside of support.
utherrev (EUNE)
: Elise's spiderlings in tft dmg HP is a bad passive!
Why would they remove the damage that’d make them useless.. Her spiders now proc the demon buff, which is where the damage is from... before that change she was near useless only used as cannon fodder in shapeshifter comps.
: > I never said remove grevious wounds I never said that you did. I only pointed that the cause and the effect could be misplaced in your explanation, that's all. Lifestealers' balance is the cornerstone of this all, not the existence of GW items. > finally rework or nerf every healing champion I think, if Riot do this first, they may not even bother with rework of GW items :D No seriously, if they find a healthy way to address life stealers (and those who heal themselves like Pyke, Mundo, or Ekko), GW will stay in the past. It's like with Aatrox rework: they've been trying to tune his numbers for so long! But in the end they just flipped the table and built everything anew. It's just that rooting out self-healing is way more complex than a single champion.
> I never said that you did. I only pointed that the cause and the effect could be misplaced in your explanation, that's all. Lifestealers' balance is the cornerstone of this all, not the existence of GW items. Drain tanks have been balanced around the existence of GW... they need heals to survive but an item takes away 40% of their healing, so they need to heal even more to still be viable. It’s cause and effect, drain tanks where an issue, riot introduced GW, then drain tanks needed buffs, then the arms race began. > I think, if Riot do this first, they may not even bother with rework of GW items :D No seriously, if they find a healthy way to address life stealers (and those who heal themselves like Pyke, Mundo, or Ekko), GW will stay in the past. Do that first and the arms race continues. The idea of that last bit is to undo the balancing around GW, do that while GW is in its current state and drain tanks become unviable, then they need buffs again. Like I said this issue is due to both sides, both sides need to be sorted at once or nothing gets done
: > Drain tanks are unhealthy because grevious wounds is unhealthy... if grevious wounds didn’t exist the amount of healing in the game would be cut in half, simply because as there’s no counter play to grevious wounds healing champions need enough healing to brute force past it. I think you miss one point here. Tuning numbers (e.g. amount of healing) is cheaper than making and maintaining new entities (e.g. GW items). I.e. if healing could be balanced without GW items, no one would even try this (and GW would stay on the few chosen champions, like Katarina). Now, look at Exec's history. And see pls that we've got three GW items at patch 7. They tried it! And quite recently, too. Now, compare to the history of 'drain tanks'...
Except you’ve missed a big point... I never said remove grevious wounds, I do recognise it’s important... what I’m saying is the current version is toxic and needs reworking. I’ve already said how I would do this * remove from component items, it shouldn’t be that easy * turn them into active item, could be skill shots, could be an AoE, could even be a non damaging ignite... this will supply counter play to these items allowing skilful use like what QSS has. * have them on items that people actually have to think about... All 3 are on items which people get regardless of if there’s drain tanks, these items should be situational items for your match up not things you get in your core build every game (looking at you morellos) * finally rework or nerf every healing champion, like I said this is a two pronged issue that riot have to tackle at the same time... now that grevious wounds is fairer their kits should also be fairer to reflect this. GW stays, it becomes fairer and easier to balance, healing champions aren’t useless by spending 800 gold, and healing champions aren’t stupid until you get GW
: > If these heals had counterplay and had grevious wounds then these champions wouldn’t be viable it’d be too easy to counter them. I think you've dropped your logic here and picked it back-to-front :D Are you literally saying that Greivous Wounds are toxic because Vamp Champions are OP?
Yes and no. Drain tanks are unhealthy because grevious wounds is unhealthy... if grevious wounds didn’t exist the amount of healing in the game would be cut in half, simply because as there’s no counter play to grevious wounds healing champions need enough healing to brute force past it. Like I said it’s an arms race, one side gets buffs, then the other side gets buffs, so on and so forth... until we are where we are now where it’s impossible to play against drain tanks without grevious wounds, and impossible to play as drain tanks with grevious wounds... both sides are at fault and riot need to rework both of them.
: What I hope when they release the new Pantheon
I’d imagine they’d keep the block mechanic but do it differently. There was an ability fiora was gonna get which was removed which was she readies to block auto attacks for X seconds and blocks every auto attack hit during this time but she gets heavily slowed when she gets hit (like suppressive fire)... riot like revisiting ideas like this and it’d fit panths quite well (blocks the damage still but severely limits his damage and mobility while doing so). I’d imagine his R is the main thing staying, with the block mechanic being there in spirit (most of his model is a shield) with the rest changing.
: I saw the teaser and I feel like when he ult he split the map in half. Maybe I am wrong but for sure I don't want to be the one who get ulted by him. https://i.imgflip.com/366d6b.jpg Edit: Maybe the extinction of the dinosaurs was the idea for his rework.
I doubt he splits the map in half... the fire and spikes below him are just from a battle he is leaping over I doubt it’s actuslly got anything to do with his kit.
Hopy (EUW)
: It'd be pretty difficult to add grievous wounds to an item and then make it applicable only in a "skillfull manner", but it'd also be difficult to make it unavailable through items as the sheer amount of champions relying on healing is so high that grievous wounds needs to be available to everyone. The only item of the category I don't like, though, is Bramble/Thornmail, as I feel like you should need a damage/carry champion to apply the effect instead of distributing it among the enemies just through them hitting you. Plus, most champions relying on healing have their numbers adjusted so that you need the effect to even stand a chance against them. If you were to remove grievous wounds, you would need to cut any healing by a lot, or else those champions become unstoppable.
> Plus, most champions relying on healing have their numbers adjusted so that you need the effect to even stand a chance against them. If you were to remove grievous wounds, you would need to cut any healing by a lot, or else those champions become unstoppable. That’s exactly what I’m saying. Like I said drain tanks became an arms race... they get buffs, then grevious wounds get buffs, then they get buffs then grevious wounds... now we are at a situation where you have to buy the items to survive... and once you do they die. They’ve managed to make it fairer before... the old morellos is the closest we’ve gotten to a fair grevious wounds item... a full item (none of this getting it with 800 gold like executioners) and only applied it to champions under a health threshold, this supplied counter play to the healing champion. Cooldowns are another way, gives windows for both sides to play around. ___ The way I say they do this * remove from component items, it shouldn’t be that easy * turn them into active item, could be skill shots, could be an AoE, could even be a non damaging ignite... this will supply counter play to these items allowing skilful use like what QSS has. * have them on items that people actually have to think about... All 3 are on items which people get regardless of if there’s drain tanks, these items should be situational items for your match up not things you get in your core build every game (looking at you morellos) * finally rework or nerf every healing champion, like I said this is a two pronged issue that riot have to tackle at the same time... now that grevious wounds is fairer their kits should also be fairer to reflect this. It’s a big issue but one Riot need to get to grips with before they can think about doing the same to shield champions... cause let’s face it we don’t want Janna having shields like soraka can heal that’d be just dumb.
: Darius main detected! :D The heal of Darius, Ekko, Jax, Yi, Swain, Vladimir, etc — THAT'S what got no counterplay (other than GW). As for the GW themselves best counterplay is 1 slot of 6. They take place of one item and they cost gold. And if that is not enough, increase cost, remove other properties from GW items. EZ!
Nope I can’t play Darius to save my life, I always get so unlucky with dunks. Jax doesn’t have heals... and yi is litterally a channel it’s got a ton of counter play... you know what you’ve picked the weirded group for your point... like I’d have expected actual drain tanks. And do you want to know why they don’t have counterplay... because of grevious wounds. If these heals had counterplay and had grevious wounds then these champions wouldn’t be viable it’d be too easy to counter them. So you have proven my point, these champions are stupid, but that’s because they’ve been balanced around grevious wounds. > And if that is not enough, increase cost, remove other properties from GW items. EZ! You think they didn’t try this already... nerf grevious wounds items then healing champions become too strong, then you’ve gotta nerf healing champions or buff grevious wounds, now healing champions are too weak.... arms race I’m not complaining that grevious wounds is too strong, and I’m not arguing from the point of view of a drain tank main (although I do play a lot of them... not Darius tho)... I’m arguing that what grevious wounds has done to drain tanks is stupid... drain tanks have been buffed way too much, and grevious wounds has gotten way too easy to obtain (seriously it’s not even difficult items to get a lot are core builds)... Riot need to sort out this relationship before trying to deal with shield champions... otherwise shield champions are gonna be like drain tanks.... to the detriment to everyone.
: https://prnt.sc/ohnn0m https://prnt.sc/ohnn47 you can't convince me this really changes anything also, what magic damage deals 10 damage per tick except level 1 fights
The entire passive is for the early game... always has been, it’s to help him through his weak early game.
: > [{quoted}](name=swampert919,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=ElFtiEEA,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-07-20T00:30:42.389+0000) > > Support was fine... the literal only thing which people didn’t like was that a good Kench can stop plays... which most supports can do anyway it’s kinda the point of peel/disengage supports... > > Top was a minor issue, just a lane bully who fell off we’ve had worse tbh... just required minor nerfs and people to learn counter play... but no riot just killed both of them off. > > Tahm does need a full gameplay update but it had nothing to do with tahm, but riots insistence of killing him. He was not fine at all. If you didnt have some way to hardstop him from running down on you as a marksman he´d literally 1v1 you with his damn base damage alone until like 3 items. A very few picks being exceptions like Vayne. Tried to engage on him or his marksman? He was too tanky to kill and he´d just pick his marksman and run if you went for them, which effectively screws over most enemy supports. He was like this juggernaut-tank-support packing damage, tankiness and utility all in one. To make him fine he´d need a new kit and he´d have to lose either his utility or his damage......tankiness is too important but one of the others would have to go.
He was fine as a support He can 1v1 an adc but that’s only if they don’t kite him, or get caught alone. A simple minion block litterally stops him from killing anyone both support and top, and if the support is litterally anywhere nearby tahm is gonna die. And yeah he can screw over other supports... so can {{champion:12}} {{champion:432}} {{champion:53}} {{champion:201}} {{champion:9}} {{champion:3}} {{champion:79}} {{champion:40}} {{champion:43}} {{champion:117}} {{champion:99}} {{champion:25}} {{champion:267}} {{champion:555}} {{champion:497}} {{champion:37}} {{champion:16}} {{champion:44}} {{champion:412}} {{champion:350}} {{champion:26}} {{champion:143}} ... it’s litterally the supports job to screw over the enemy support, think about it it’s the supports job to get kills for their team or prevent the other team from getting kills, that’s litterally polar opposites one will screw the other over it’s guarenteed. At least tahm took skill, you’ve got champions like fiddle or lulu that press a point a click button and your play is ruined while the enemy adc gets to do whatever he likes, tahm had to stop his adc’s dps to save him which was a worthy trade off. Tahm was fine, people just didn’t respect him... now he’s so messed up he’s gonna need a pointless rework just to be viable again.
: I need help understanding Riot balance team
Remember that 1 damage isn’t just once... it’s every instance of damage. Against burst doesn’t help at all, but when your against say a DoT mage and they are dealing 10 damage per tick that one damage becomes a lot. You can’t look at raw numbers but also frequency of activation... the more it’s activated the more this affects him (also don’t forget it went from 4 to 3... that’s still a 25% decrease). And what did you mean by the 0.1 health per level, no champion got a change like that
: Mordekazer will probobly end up too nerfed soon.
He has a 70% ban rate... nobody is getting to play against him often enough to actually practice match ups and learn how to play against him so a lot of his issues are stemming from inexperience. People are using bans as a crutch and it’s completely messing morde up... if he had a normal ban rate he’d be fine right now prob wouldn’t even needed nerfs this patch
: Issue/Suggestion Regarding Malphite's New Size Scaling
Because it’s not a full VGU and his size increase is meant to be a cosmetic thing mostly his AoEs don’t get increased... as if it did increase it’d become a much larger buff. Riot may change this in the future, but this was something they where fully aware of and gave a statement about when he first got his rework on the pbe.
: Please revert Lee Sin voice update
Not for a while st least. There’s a big controversy with his old voice actor (long story short sexual assault charges where issued against him) so a lot of companies are distancing themselves from him so they don’t get swept up in the controversy and to save face... hence why riot have given lee a new voice. If the controversy blows over with his VA being cleared of charges, and people really don’t like his new voice they might have his old VA redo them or something... but that’s a long shot.
: I'd rather say: why not add shield-breaking to some item? We already have items that apply heal-breaking (Grievous Wounds). We have items that slow. We have items that make shields better. We even have an item that counters spamming of a single damaging effect! So why not have an item that counters shield spamming?
Because grevious wounds is toxic and we don’t need to cause more issues for more champions. The problem at the moment is that grevious wounds has no counter play, you buy it and healing is countered no ifs or buts... when against a champion who relies completely on healing to function an opponent buying grevious wounds renders you nearly useless... at which point Riot then buffs the drain tank to be useful, then they become too strong cause they can overpower grevious wounds so riot buffs grevious wounds, then drain tanks die so riot buffs them. It just creates an arms race which results in healing champions being utterly ridiculous and grevious wounds being must buys because the healing champion was balanced around you buying it. It’s not healthy for anyone involved (If you don’t beleive me vlad is strong, aatrox got his healing increased massively, as did mundo... and now this patch anti healing is being buffed... it’s a vicious cycle). Until riot can actually make grevious wounds a healthy stat them adding the same for shielding will most likely result in the exact same arms race for another group of champions... items hard countering champions ain’t healthy
: About the ''new'' anti-shield mechanics
It’s the way it’s done. Irelia got it constantly by getting max stacks on her passive, this meant that when she stacked up shields became useless vs her for the rest of the fight... it wasn’t windowed. Aatrox might have worked better but his was a mutilate meaning it had to be applied before the shield to work... but the way aatrox worked meant that you don’t auto attack when you want, you auto attack when you could... which meant he didn’t really get much value out of the debut... so it was ditched in favour of a heal which works so much better for him These two have it as not only a windowed cooldown but one you as an enemy can see. Renekton has to use an empowered W to get it, this means that if he’s not got enough fury or after he uses W you are free to shield... you both have windows to play around Blitz is on an ultimate which you can see when it’s on and off cooldown thanks to its passive... so once he ults you can shield again without worry. ___ It’s a different and healthier way of doing it... instead of making shield useless vs that champion like what irelia had you create a window where you can shield vs them, it becomes a skill check... which is the healthy way of doing it.
: Tahm Kench is a dead fish in the water this patch.
Got nothing to do with the shield break champions... the issue is the fact that riot litterally nerfed him into oblivion. They’ve literally taken everything half decent about tahm out of his kit now there’s no point picking him.
Infernape (EUW)
: And nothing of value was lost. Tahm Kench needs a full gameplay update. His kit is too cancerous top lane and support.
Support was fine... the literal only thing which people didn’t like was that a good Kench can stop plays... which most supports can do anyway it’s kinda the point of peel/disengage supports... Top was a minor issue, just a lane bully who fell off we’ve had worse tbh... just required minor nerfs and people to learn counter play... but no riot just killed both of them off. Tahm does need a full gameplay update but it had nothing to do with tahm, but riots insistence of killing him.
Hopy (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=swampert919,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=8uARrEmQ,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-18T16:35:13.839+0000) > Aatrox’s class already has a ton of simplistic champions, and not that many complex ones. thematically he fit this more difficult playstyle better. The latter is quite a subjective matter, but if you mean that the splitpush-type of champion seems to be pretty easy on the mechanical side, I agree and also think that we'd need a few more mechanically oriented ones, but new Aatrox doesn't play in that role anymore, or at least not nearly as predominantly as before. This is just a flawed rework, in my eyes, if not only his micro-plane of gameplay (autoattack to combo-bruiser is fine by me), but also his role in the tactical framework of the game changes, but I agree with what you're trying to get at here. > But if these champions truly where in a situation with no advantage they would have died... just because you don’t see the advantage doesn’t mean it ain’t there. Well, these ridiculous situations have happened so many times throughout the years (just talking proplay here), and if it were a tactically bad decision to go and get a pick on the usually(!) mispositioned squishy, these situations wouldn't happen because they wouldn't go for the pick. But the skill ceiling of these champions just allows them to turn these situations around. This could be considered and planned for, of course, but at that point you're giving up a usually(!) free kill on a terribly mispositioned opponent, potentially even without them noticing (as in: lack of map awareness, this would be more of a soloq thing), just because they've played enough yasuo/akali/riven/aatrox in their lives. Not very tactical or strategic, in my eyes. At this point it's just a clash of opinions and I dislike the matter because I view it as a (highly) predominantly strategic game, and less of a mechanical one (or at least would like it to be), and these champions conflict that. But you're obviously free to weigh these aspects differently, this is just a matter of opinion and you can have yours. > > But they do it in very different ways and have different strengths and weaknesses. > > Swain has AoE so better in teamfights, Warwick has the stronger cc and is tabkier along with his hunter playstyle, rhaast has a more assasin like twist to it with better single target da,age and target selection, so on abd is forth. > > The idea of a niche is how you go about your job, your strengths and weaknesses, why pick that champion over anyone else... even with similarity each champion needs their own spin on things to function. yi, trynd, aatrox, and jax all had the exact same playstyle, with the latter 3 being nearly the same... this created massive issues for all 3. > To be fair, I could also lay the aforementioned champions that I compared to new Aatrox out to be "exactly the same" if I word it in the corresponding way, whether they seriously feel the same is more of a matter of situation and, again, opinion in the end. I definitely wouldn't have minded the Aatrox rework if it had turned him into a mechanically oriented splitpusher, as mentioned, but he turned into a mechanically oriented dive/backline-distract champion, which is what bothers me. Also, I still feel like out of all these stat check splitpushers, Aatrox seriously was the least toxic one and the decision to rework _him_ in specific just boiled down to the low player count, which is unpleasant but understandable. > That’s not what stat checking is. It doesn’t matter about macro skill every champion uses macro skill no matter what. It’s about in fights, how you fight with these champions is you have more stats and ram your head against them till people die. > In a fight as aatrox you jump in, auto attack, and somebody died either you or them with very little input on either side. His skill shots actually didn’t matter a whole lot outside of the early game, it all came down to stat checking in the end. > > Diana at least has a combo she has to do, aatrox it honestly didn’t matter what you did you threw everything at the enemy and hope for the best And _because_ champs like old Aatrox lacked the outplay potential (on both sides!), macro was more important (relative to the other aspects of the game) than with a mechanical one. Again, I personally don't mind this, but it's a matter of subjective views, I'd say. Thank you for the civilized discussion, though.
> The latter is quite a subjective matter, but if you mean that the splitpush-type of champion seems to be pretty easy on the mechanical side, I agree and also think that we'd need a few more mechanically oriented ones, but new Aatrox doesn't play in that role anymore, or at least not nearly as predominantly as before. Not quite Firstly aatrox doesn’t fit a split push type role, in both old and new lore his main thematic was engaging in massive fights and turning the tide, with the old lore being him inspiring one side to fight on and win, and his new lore just killing both sides. This implies a more teamfight oriented playstyle, like new aatrox currently has. Secondly casting, aatrox needed to differentiate from jax and tryndamere so we will bring those two up in particular... aatrox is a greatsword user, always has been. This means slower strikes but longer range, AoE, and damage.... think burst damage for greatswords vs dps for shortswords. So it makes sense to take aatrox in this direction in contrast to the other two. Thirdly mechanics. Aatrox is a god warrior with centuries of combat experience. This makes him one of if not the most experienced combatant in the league, having fought in the shuriman expansion wars, the ichathian incident, and the darkin wars.... that’s more combat experience than anyone baring the other acsended/darkin. This means he should be more skilful than his opponents lending to a more high skill playstyle. You are right this bit is subjective... but thematically he fits this better than he did his old kit. He should be a skilled fighter killing multible people with a single sword stroke. > Well, these ridiculous situations have happened so many times throughout the years (just talking proplay here), and if it were a tactically bad decision to go and get a pick on the usually(!) mispositioned squishy But again you have to shift your perception of the work mispositioned (and squishy for that matter, none of the people you mentioned are actually that squishy bar akali). Mispositioned means that they are in a position where they are in danger, this isn’t universal what is out of position for a kogmaw is different to an aatrox. When you get good at a champion you are safer in a larger range of locations and you identify when you are out of position. So again, if these champions outplayed and killed you or survived while ‘mispositioned’ are they actually mispositioned or did you get baited into a fight by misreading the situation or misplaying yourself. > To be fair, I could also lay the aforementioned champions that I compared to new Aatrox out to be "exactly the same" if I word it in the corresponding way, whether they seriously feel the same is more of a matter of situation and, again, opinion in the end. I definitely wouldn't have minded the Aatrox rework if it had turned him into a mechanically oriented splitpusher, as mentioned, but he turned into a mechanically oriented dive/backline-distract champion, which is what bothers me. Also, I still feel like out of all these stat check splitpushers, Aatrox seriously was the least toxic one and the decision to rework him in specific just boiled down to the low player count, which is unpleasant but understandable. Not quite. While their job is the same the way they do it is widely different... they’ve got different strengths and weaknesses which allow them to stand out from a crowd. If we take riven and aatrox for instance as it’s the one people love to flaunt (despite it being stupid). They have the same job but.... riven has higher burst damage and greater mobility, while aatrox has better sustain and pick potential. So if you want to jump into a back line to eliminate someone you pick riven or require shorter fights, if your looking to set up more picks or you need to fight much more elongated periods of time aatrox is better. That’s how niche works... a class shares a rough job, while each champion does the job differently and therefore gives a reason to be picked Aatrox, jax, and trynd didn’t have that... their strengths, weaknesses and playstyle was almost identical this created issues as you don’t pick one over the other for their individual strenghs, rather which one was stronger. As for why aatrox was first... trynd and jax are much older so needed full VGUs, aatrox was meant to get just a kit rework in the fighter update but when class updates where scrapped he and xin got worked on indepentantly... aatrox’s rework then escalated as more and more things where needed to make it work (it was meant to keep the playstyle, then it couldn’t, then he needed a new model to fit the new playsyle, then they decided to give him the full work as they almost had). So aatrox was meant to be fast a small so they did him in between bigger things, then he turned out to be anything but that.... so yeah he was better than the other stat checkers, that’s why he was first. > And because champs like old Aatrox lacked the outplay potential (on both sides!), macro was more important (relative to the other aspects of the game) than with a mechanical one. Again, I personally don't mind this, but it's a matter of subjective views, I'd say. No the importantance of macro doesn’t change... old and new aatrox require the same macro skill on either side... what changes is the reliance on that skill as the only way to win/beat them... that’s not healthy.
: I disagree
Do you want to elaborate on what you disagree with
Hopy (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=swampert919,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=8uARrEmQ,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-18T14:51:11.319+0000) > > Aatrox has outplay potential... him killing you is skill based, while you killing him is also skill based. That’s how the game should work, skill vs skill. > Old Aatrox didn’t, you jump in and either kill them or die depending on how strong you are. The game needs varying degrees of complexity within its champion pool and since riot tends to go more on the skill-heavy side recently, a more stat-checky champion (which, in a way, is impossible without skillshots, (and old aatrox actually had two)) wouldn't be so bad. Besides, there's still the strategic skill involved in getting to these sufficient stats, such as, wave manipulation, setting up solo kills, getting picks, overall just understanding the game, and this just becomes more important with mechanically less demanding champions. This is also critically important for people to actually learn these aspects of the game, if no simple champions and only options like current Aatrox existed, players trying to improve their macro might only be capable of focussing on their mechanics since the player is more directly connected to this aspect of the game. And it's obvious we shouldn't just have Annie and Garen here, a more varied field of champions is still good for this. Stat-checky doesn't necessarily equal bad, these champions just require/emphasize different skillsets to maneuver and beat. > [{quoted}](name=swampert919,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=8uARrEmQ,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-18T14:51:11.319+0000) >And if a champion turns an unfavourable situation into a multikill it wasn’t an unfavourable situation was it. There are plenty of Irelia/Akali clips (even proplay, mind you) that prove this wrong, wherein the aforementioned champions have no real sufficient strategical advantage and should just die or be unable to create sufficient pressure, but end up killing or forcing away several people on their own, even though this doesn't fit within the strategic framework of the game. And don't tell me Proplayer 1 is just this much more mechanically proficient than 2 to 5. These champions allow the person piloting them to influence a given situation so much more than the enemy can, that equal skill (under the premise that whoever is piloting them has "learned" the champion in specific) ends up being a disadvantage to their opponent. Especially Akali here, with proplay proof, but Azir used to suffer heavily from the same problem, etc. These champions have ludicrous winrate differences between beginners and mains/players who use them often, to the point where it is simply unhealthy for the game due to these characters simply having too much outplay potential. I still find Aatrox quite mild in this regard, but even so, the general direction is not healthy, and this has, as far as I know, come to be a relatively widely accepted consensus among the community (especially with Yasuo/Akali, again). > [{quoted}](name=swampert919,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=8uARrEmQ,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-18T14:51:11.319+0000) >A splitpush snowball niche shared by at least 3 other champions As if current Aatrox's role of diving the backline and either pressuring out their key cooldowns and/or just outright killing them (not even going over how good he was at applying that pressure with his revive, especially before his mini rework this season), even if you count in the drain tank aspect of it, wasn't also filled by Rhaast, Warwick, arguably new Swain, and so on. It is completely usual for a game with this many champions to have overlapping roles and playstyles and this is fine and just offers more wanted variety as long as they don't feel identical (which, in my opinion, they don't). > [{quoted}](name=swampert919,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=8uARrEmQ,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-18T14:51:11.319+0000) >He was also more stat checky than Diana Simply due to being a splitpush champion, Aatrox used to offer up more skill opportunities (macro-skill, that is), than Diana could, since all she does is wait for key cooldowns to be blown and then pray she has enough damage, whereas old Aatrox had 2 skillshots that could mechanically determine the outcome of the fight with whoever he was pushing the sidelane into (although, admittedly, as the game progressed, low impact skillshots) and had to go through a lot more strategic consideration.
> The game needs varying degrees of complexity within its champion pool and since riot tends to go more on the skill-heavy side recently, a more stat-checky champion (which, in a way, is impossible without skillshots, (and old aatrox actually had two)) wouldn't be so bad. Besides, there's still the strategic skill involved in getting to these sufficient stats, such as, wave manipulation, setting up solo kills, getting picks, overall just understanding the game, and this just becomes more important with mechanically less demanding champions. > This is also critically important for people to actually learn these aspects of the game, if no simple champions and only options like current Aatrox existed, players trying to improve their macro might only be capable of focussing on their mechanics since the player is more directly connected to this aspect of the game. And it's obvious we shouldn't just have Annie and Garen here, a more varied field of champions is still good for this. Stat-checky doesn't necessarily equal bad, these champions just require/emphasize different skillsets to maneuver and beat. Aatrox isn’t the right champion for that but that doesn’t mean riot is getting rid of all champions like that. Just look at nunu and Warwick, two reworked champions who where kept with a low skill floor allowing players to do what you just said. But there’s also gotta be options for difficult champions as well, ones which are difficult to learn but rewarding to do so... champions like new aatrox need to exist just as much as simple champions like garen. Aatrox’s class already has a ton of simplistic champions, and not that many complex ones... so the niche as a high skill fighter existed, he’s also 6300 ip which implies a harder champion, while 450 ip champions are the simple ones (giving new players them first). His simplicity was also heavily feeding into his issues, and thematically he fit this more difficult playstyle better. > There are plenty of Irelia/Akali clips (even proplay, mind you) that prove this wrong, wherein the aforementioned champions have no real sufficient strategical advantage and should just die or be unable to create sufficient pressure, but end up killing or forcing away several people on their own, even though this doesn't fit within the strategic framework of the game. And don't tell me Proplayer 1 is just this much more mechanically proficient than 2 to 5. These champions allow the person piloting them to influence a given situation so much more than the enemy can, that equal skill (under the premise that whoever is piloting them has "learned" the champion in specific) ends up being a disadvantage to their opponent. Especially Akali here, with proplay proof, but Azir used to suffer heavily from the same problem, etc. These champions have ludicrous winrate differences between beginners and mains/players who use them often, to the point where it is simply unhealthy for the game due to these characters simply having too much outplay potential. I still find Aatrox quite mild in this regard, but even so, the general direction is not healthy, and this has, as far as I know, come to be a relatively widely accepted consensus among the community (especially with Yasuo/Akali, again). But if these champions truly where in a situation with no advantage they would have died... just because you don’t see the advantage doesn’t mean it ain’t there. You’ve akso forgotten something big... these champions needed skill and experience to play, where as simple champions didn’t... you should be rewarded for mastering a champion especially a difficult one, so these outplay potentials are needed for rewarding difficult champions. Most of these are outplays, they require the player to do something to beat the opponent... but that doesn’t mean the opponent is helpless even if it looks like it in the clip. Most of these would see the player dodge abilities or land a skill shot, if the opponent predicted the dodge and landed the skill shot or dodged the skillshots fired at them the outcome will be different. They require a misplay just as much as an outplay. > As if current Aatrox's role of diving the backline and either pressuring out their key cooldowns and/or just outright killing them (not even going over how good he was at applying that pressure with his revive, especially before his mini rework this season), even if you count in the drain tank aspect of it, wasn't also filled by Rhaast, Warwick, arguably new Swain, and so on. It is completely usual for a game with this many champions to have overlapping roles and playstyles and this is fine and just offers more wanted variety as long as they don't feel identical (which, in my opinion, they don't). But they do it in very different ways and have different strengths and weaknesses. Swain has AoE so better in teamfights, Warwick has the stronger cc and is tabkier along with his hunter playstyle, rhaast has a more assasin like twist to it with better single target da,age and target selection, so on abd is forth. The idea of a niche is how you go about your job, your strengths and weaknesses, why pick that champion over anyone else... even with similarity each champion needs their own spin on things to function. yi, trynd, aatrox, and jax all had the exact same playstyle, with the latter 3 being nearly the same... this created massive issues for all 3. > Simply due to being a splitpush champion, Aatrox used to offer up more skill opportunities (macro-skill, that is), than Diana could, since all she does is wait for key cooldowns to be blown and then pray she has enough damage, whereas old Aatrox had 2 skillshots that could mechanically determine the outcome of the fight with whoever he was pushing the sidelane into (although, admittedly, as the game progressed, low impact skillshots) and had to go through a lot more strategic consideration. That’s not what stat checking is. It doesn’t matter about macro skill every champion uses macro skill no matter what. It’s about in fights, how you fight with these champions is you have more stats and ram your head against them till people die. In a fight as aatrox you jump in, auto attack, and somebody died either you or them with very little input on either side. His skill shots actually didn’t matter a whole lot outside of the early game, it all came down to stat checking in the end. Diana at least has a combo she has to do, aatrox it honestly didn’t matter what you did you threw everything at the enemy and hope for the best
: Riot don't bother with these boards. I actually wonder if there's any point in keeping these boards going tbh. If you actually want them to hear what you have to say you've three options: 1) Send in a support ticket (which will more than likely be ignored as they're inundated atm - not a major surprise that...). 2) Make a thread on Reddit. If it gets enough upvotes, a Rioter normally comments. 3) Tweet them as they seem to primarily communicate through Twitter for some goddamned reason.
These boards aren’t for riot to talk to us, it’s for the community to talk to each other... hence why the boards is run by volunteer players not by rioters
Hopy (EUW)
: I honestly think that the new Aatrox is not even a tad bit healthier than the previous one. These Combo-bruiser highly mechanical type of champions tend to have the problem of sub-par winrates because the majority of players can't actually handle them correctly, whereas the few that took the time to learn them are completely unstoppable because the champions are ridiculous if you're able to utilize their kit to its full extent. This is Yasuo/Irelia/Akali-esque design, and that is seriously unhealthy for the game, because a champion that can turn a completely unfavourable situation into a multikill through mechanics alone kind of eliminates tactical play to a degree. The old Aatrox had a splitpush/snowball niche and very clear cut counterplay, and wasn't nearly as stat-check-heavy as stuff like Diana is, I think. I can see why they'd rework a buggy and honestly toxic mess like Mordekaiser, but I feel like they would have been fine just releasing reworked Aatrox as a new champion, and apart from the revive, which doesn't even exist anymore, nobody would really have noticed the outstanding similarities with old Aatrox.
> I honestly think that the new Aatrox is not even a tad bit healthier than the previous one. These Combo-bruiser highly mechanical type of champions tend to have the problem of sub-par winrates because the majority of players can't actually handle them correctly, whereas the few that took the time to learn them are completely unstoppable because the champions are ridiculous if you're able to utilize their kit to its full extent. This is Yasuo/Irelia/Akali-esque design, and that is seriously unhealthy for the game, because a champion that can turn a completely unfavourable situation into a multikill through mechanics alone kind of eliminates tactical play to a degree. Aatrox has outplay potential... him killing you is skill based, while you killing him is also skill based. That’s how the game should work, skill vs skill. Old Aatrox didn’t, you jump in and either kill them or die depending on how strong you are. And if a champion turns an unfavourable situation into a multikill it wasn’t an unfavourable situation was it. > The old Aatrox had a splitpush/snowball niche and very clear cut counterplay, and wasn't nearly as stat-check-heavy as stuff like Diana is, I think. I can see why they'd rework a buggy and honestly toxic mess like Mordekaiser, but I feel like they would have been fine just releasing reworked Aatrox as a new champion, and apart from the revive, which doesn't even exist anymore, nobody would really have noticed the outstanding similarities with old Aatrox. A splitpush snowball niche shared by at least 3 other champions... of your niche isn’t your own there’s no point to it. The idea of niches are to prevent champions from forcing other champions out of the meta, why play X champion when Y champion does the same job better. When aatrox, jax, yi, abd trynd all had the exact same niche and playstyle it makes all of them suffer, only one can be viable at a time. That was one of the issues aatrox had, why he got the rework (among other things), he wasn’t healthy existing among them. He was also more stat checky than Diana... entireky due to how his W worked. With Diana you burst or die and that’s cause she’s an assasin bruiser hybrid with the tools of neither, aatrox if you have more stats and don’t get cc’d your immortal, if you have less stats you die. It wasn’t healthy. ___ New aatrox is infinitely more healthy than Old Aatrox... the fact that he’s had a lot less issues so far than what Old Aatrox had proves that... being a high skill champion isn’t a bad thing and what he is doing isn’t unhealthy.
: Riot did fix the bugs pretty quickly though, gotta give them some credit.
Exactly... bugs are a given in video games it’s entireky luck based and no game has 0 bugs... we can’t judge riot for the existence of bugs but how they handle bugs coming to light... the major ones where fixed in a few hours
Composure (EUNE)
: > Old Aatrox wasn’t healthy, the goal of the aatrox rework was to remove the old kit not to add a new one... he was toxic and stat checky and frankly given his dominance just before his rework Riot would have nerfed him into oblivion if he didn’t get reworked when he did. Old Aatrox wasn't in great state, but he wasn't toxic lol. The goal of every rework is to fix a kit or add something more to it especially if it's already good and only lacking something. if they wanted to delete Aatrox they might as well make a new champion. > There’s no point in reverting new aatrox the rework was a huge success... though they should have kept the revive it was pretty pivotal to his playstyle both before and after the rework. I'm not sure if he's rework was a huge success people didn't liked it at first, and he already was changed and nerfed a lot. Wouldn't call this successful rework. his revive wasn't that important as it was his engage and w. you could choose to be a more safer player or aggressive one. Right now u just try to time ur combos correctly. > And the revive wasn’t the only thing kept. At this point we are only missing blood price and E... his Q is still on his Q as the third Q is litterally the same minus the dash (and if you use E you’ve got the same ability), his blood thirst W is now his passive, and his ult is practically the same minus the damage and replacing the attack speed for ad. his third q is not the same as old q. It's literally different. Just watch the animation or something, you clearly don't see this design at all. his old q was a jump and dash with knock up it was all in 1 ability, meanwhile for new Aatrox to get this u have to use ur q 3 times and dash with ur e. Right now he has riven's q, there's nothing similar to old Aatrox. his current passive is not the same as his old w. right now u just get some heal for 1 auto attack in like 20 seconds and u mutilate an enemy. As Old aatrox u could get heal every third aa or bonus damage. totally the same passive :D His ult is not the same, it's similar but not the same, it used to be more movement speed, more damage and attack speed, right now it's just more movement speed and healing. totally the same. > The idea that he’s gone is not true, while it’s a different playstyle all they got rid of was the three hit W and an ability nobody cared for... They got rid of his w, of his old q, e and they changed ult. basically nothing is left there. And there is people that cared about this abilities you're clearly not giving facts, you're just bias right now. If u didn't liked old Aatrox that doesn't mean others didn't liked him as well. Overall it's there's no traces of old Aatrox. the fact that his playstyle is so different tell us that they %%%%ed up this rework. If u view it in a popularity then yes Aatrox is played more, but if u look at the perspective of a game developer then this rework is just a failure. Imagine you play Aatrox for 5 years and then suddenly he's no more. These people don't like it trust me.
> Old Aatrox wasn't in great state, but he wasn't toxic lol. The goal of every rework is to fix a kit or add something more to it especially if it's already good and only lacking something. if they wanted to delete Aatrox they might as well make a new champion. He was super toxic, I’ve already listen the reasons why. The goal of the rework is to improve game health... the vast majority of them is to kill a champion not to improve them > I'm not sure if he's rework was a huge success people didn't liked it at first, and he already was changed and nerfed a lot. Wouldn't call this successful rework. his revive wasn't that important as it was his engage and w. you could choose to be a more safer player or aggressive one. Right now u just try to time ur combos correctly. It was a huge success... his playrate shot up big time, he’s no longer stat checky, he’s easier to balance (easier, not easy mind you... he’s still a drain tank so still gets those issues), actually has a skill floor and ceiling (aatrox was brain dead... this is coming from someone who played him). His revive is how he gets to build a ton of damage and still be viable in the middle of a fight... for both versions it’s critical to his viability. Choosing to be passive or aggressive isn’t unique litterally every champion can do that it’s just a general skill... > his third q is not the same as old q. It's literally different. Just watch the animation or something, you clearly don't see this design at all. his old q was a jump and dash with knock up it was all in 1 ability, meanwhile for new Aatrox to get this u have to use ur q 3 times and dash with ur e. It got split up but it’s still there. His Q came from his old Q... AoE with a knock up sweet spot, his third Q even being the exact same AoE as the old Q, even got a similar animation of jumping up then down onto the target area. All that’s missing is the dash which like I said was just moved so it’s still there. > his current passive is not the same as his old w. right now u just get some heal for 1 auto attack in like 20 seconds and u mutilate an enemy. As Old aatrox u could get heal every third aa or bonus damage. totally the same passive :D On hit heal... it’s got the same animation as well. And it doesn’t have a mutilate. Remember the 3 hit passive was the issue which got us here in the first place... so while not the same it’s still similar. > His ult is not the same, it's similar but not the same, it used to be more movement speed, more damage and attack speed, right now it's just more movement speed and healing. totally the same. It’s healing, movement speed and damage. You’ve forgotten the % increase of AD. And Old Aatrox didn’t get movement speed So Old Aatrox was increased attack speed (aka damage), range, and in proxy healing (more attacks meant more heals) New aatrox is increased attack damage (aka more damage), movement speed, and healing. So they are practically the same ability but modified for a caster playstyle. ___ You’ve shown very little understanding of either aatrox... and you’ve contradicted yourself several times... saying there’s nothing similar then listing similarities, or having the gaul to say that urgot was a sucesss and aatrox was a failure when aatrox kept more.
Its a GANK (EUNE)
: You are 100% correct man, BUT. The main goal is to keep the play style of the champion THE SAME, not just make a new champion who tells the same words when you press ctrl+1. People play certain champions because they have a specific playstyle, you choose the one you like from 200. They can be categorised, but every one is specific to his own and people choose champ A to invest they free time with, to have fun with for A REASON. All those Riven comparisons are fair, if i wanted this type of playstyle, wont go for Aatrox, ill go for Riven.
Keeping the playstyle the same is a secondary objective, the primary objective is to make the kit healthier, when the issue stems from the thing that gives the champion their playstyle that means that the playstyle has to go. Namely the W in this case... it wasn’t actually healthy, his focus on it meant that he had a toxic relationship with attack speed which made balance impossible, and it was the source of his stat check and drain tank issues. Once the W is ditched no matter what you come up with it ain’t gonna be aatrox, his identity was too closely linked to it. It’s a sucky reality but every time 1 person plays aatrox 5 people have to play against it... this means that making it healthy and fair comes at the same priority if not higher than keeping his playstyle... riot have to cater to as many people as possible and every champion’s community is a minority even popular ones, riot have to do what’s necessary. Like I said it sucks but it’s a hard choice Riot have to make, do you preserve a playstyle in exchange for game health, or preserve game health in exchange for killing a champion... and it is a hard choice, remember no matter how much we love a champion there’s someone at riot who loves them more... I mean it’s practically their baby... and it ain’t like aatrox was the first to loose his playstyle nor is he gonna be the last.
: master yi , diana , tryndamere , udyr , jax , irelia , volibear , yorick , teemo are all stathecky champions and there are more of them when you think about it , statcheck was not a special case for old aatrox , also you had to know to toggle your w and he had technically 2 skillshots where as udyr an yi has literally no skillhots basically point and click , so stop with your bs ty.
Just because another champion is stat checky doesn’t mean aatrox should be reverted, just means those champions need reworks. Yorick and irelia aren’t stat checky, they where before their rework but they’ve got outplay potential on both sides The rest that you mentioned are all on the list to be reworked... so they will be following aatrox soon.
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swampert919

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